[T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Cerberus Alpha » Ven Jan 30, 2015 11:31 pm

NihilisticNinja a écrit :
Cerberus Alpha a écrit :
Spoiler : :
Erm, it's not just "something feels off", everyone was caught lying and covering for each other several times during the trial, not to mention Gavin's all too conveniently showing up as a surprise witness in a case that was supposedly kept under wraps from the public eye. Maya telling Gavin to shut up at a certain point is a blatant admission of guilt on their part, yet everyone ignores everything that happened before when Ares enters the room ranting about the Leviathan, and Apollo simply abandons the case and runs away in anger.

Oh, it's just that you mentioned culprits and Apollo being basically right about the solution so I figured you thought I was saying that Apollo's logic about the suicide case was a load of crap, when I was actually referring to the BS he fed Ares in the end. No need to get into detail about how their lies are different, I understand why they did what they did, but still they fixed it with yet another deception that has the potential to backfire horribly should Ares take a look at the case again on whim... it kinda surprised me how quickly Ares gave up considering his obsession with the Leviathan.

Hmmm, perhaps our different POVs about this stem from the fact that you actually saw a conclusion for the trial, whereas I did not, so you actually got closure, even if unsatisfying, while I had to keep wondering what happened. Maybe if I'd seen the scene I'd arrive at the same conclusion as pretty much everyone else that saw it did, so I guess I'll take you guys' word for it, but still making it a reward for solving the optional CE couldn't hurt right?


Spoiler : :
Well, I feel like on some level that conclusion is certainly easy to reach, but I'm not positive how much of it has to do with "they were the killers by basic logic", and how much of it has to do with "they conformed to the kinds of tropes that we're all used to, so we naturally concluded that they were the killers."

For instance, all their lies. It's worth noting that it's a very high pressure situation being on the witness stand, especially when your every word is being scrutinized by a defense attorney determined to poke any holes into your story as possible. Aside from Phoenix, these people aren't going to have that much experience with that sort of thing, so it would be easy to screw up and make mistakes, or forget events. And even in Phoenix's case, the human mind basically has a natural tendency to err.

There's a reason witness testimony is considered one of the least reliable forms of evidence in an actual court of law- this may be slightly balanced out by having the trial immediately afterward, but it's still pretty easy to make mistakes based on preconceptions of what you think occurred rather than what you know occurred, simply misspeak or improperly word things out of stress, or forget details for that exact same reason. To us, the whole "Oh hey, I forgot X" may seem really sketchy, because it's a work of fiction and things like that typically don't have such a simplistic answer. But, really? It's honestly completely possible that, yes, he did just forget X. People screw up and make mistakes, and that doesn't mean that they're the killer every single time. That's a rule of mystery fiction, and not a rule of reality.

And to us, the whole "Shut up Kristoph" thing sounds really damning, as does Maya's taunting to Apollo earlier. But I'm not convinced that those things can't be explained. After all, at that point anybody would get frustrated- holes were continually being poked in their story, and if they were innocent, those holes wouldn't exist because of failing to probably plan out their lies, they would have been in there simply due to basic mistakes in recollection and similar errors. That is really frustrating, and the idea that you might have to go to jail because of honest mistakes would definitely cause enough stress, fear, and frustration that people could say things that they don't really mean. If one of you is continually making mistakes and screwing things up, even if they don't mean to, it's natural to just want them to... stop talking.

And the taunting is even simpler to explain- it could be Maya putting on some false bravado because she honestly does find getting accused to be scary, but really doesn't want to show that fear to a defense attorney so that it can be exploited. So she uses the knowledge that she is innocent, and basically says "I wouldn't do that if I were you", perhaps also as a way to get him to stop pressuring her, so that she doesn't even have to risk going to prison for a crime she didn't commit.

Now, you could argue that these are stretches in logic based on psycho-analysis. I would respond that the issue is that the other side is already doing that, because the entire conclusion that most of them are in on it and yet threw together this contrived scheme could only be the result of "They did it unnecessarily to throw us all off their trail!" And that is also a logical stretch that is also based on psycho-analysis of people that we barely even know. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

In terms of the ending, you could very well have a point. I certainly can't say with authority that you are wrong, and I can't know for sure what my reaction would be playing it blind now myself. Especially since, as I said in my first response, I am typically not a fan of ambiguous endings. I don't think it would certainly do any harm to have it as an optional bonus, I just completely understand why it was cut.



Spoiler : :
Hmmm I'm sorry but I can't agree with you on this one, the very fact that they prepared Kristoph to show up beforehand proves that the whole thing was premeditated and not the result of mistakes caused by nervousness or "honest mistakes". Maybe if they had just forgotten a few details here and there or omitted a few things it could be true, but that isn't the case here, especially considering the directly conflicting testimonies they give at certain points and how many times they revise their stories to cover for each other.

Also, Kristoph making mistakes doesn't really gives Maya the right to try and shut him up, it only makes them look incredibly more suspicious, and considering she is quite sharp in this trial that excuse doesn't fly. I'm not sure why you are justifying Maya's taunting, I never mentioned it in any of my posts...
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Spyromed » Dim Fév 08, 2015 5:53 pm

Just dropping this comment here to say -

Spoiler : :
If you press the last statement on Ares' CE before the others, then a bug occurs because it redirects to 3894 (itself) rather than 3895.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Sarcasticat » Lun Fév 23, 2015 2:03 am

The first time I tried to complete this, I failed (I watched Phoenix Wright's official trials- like justice for all and Trials and tribulations-). I then realized that I didn't make the connections. The second time I played this, I actually got halfway there but then crashed at the part of the optional CE. I had to look up the walkthrough (i'm ashamed to say that I used that from the optional CE and furthermore until the end) and I accidentally skipped over how to initiate the SUPRA-objection. Thank goodness that I did the whole pressing thing again. Getting back to my point, I thought it was a good case (even though I had troubles with it along the way) but the ending... It could've been better but then again I can't think of any other better ways to end a trial like that. (Maybe you could put up the alternate ending with the maid, wife, and friend? I'd love to see that one! Their reasoning was never clear-or i'm just not connecting the dots- as to why they'd 'murder' someone and then make it complicated.
Spoiler : :
The ending... Why'd you make Ares Justice (whose sprite I couldn't see throughout the trial so it was pretty funny when the wife talked about a ghost and Thalassa :eureka: mentioned the murderer going through walls) seem crazy? True his wife's death and the fact that his son wasn't exactly too happy with him and the situation he was in but still, it could have been triggered by something else! Or he could've been right in exerting the family friend. (sigh, all of my arguments can be easily shot down.)

-Your trial was amazing,
Sarcasticat (no sarcasticness- is that even a word?- intended).

:apollo:
:awesome:
Dernière édition par Enthalpy le Lun Fév 23, 2015 5:56 pm, édité 1 fois.
Raison : Fixed spoiler tag.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Enthalpy » Lun Fév 23, 2015 5:58 pm

Hello Sarcasticat, and welcome to the forums!

For future reference, to go inside a spoiler, text needs to be between the spoiler tags, not right after them.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson

Current AAO Development Priority: Issue #94: Grayscale Mode
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Calvinball » Mer Mars 18, 2015 5:33 am

Hello, DWaM. I finally got around to playing your Turnabouts of the Father, and I have to say it was phenomenal. And this is coming after I've played some other phenomenal cases. I played it on the V6 trial editor and, yeah, it's buggy, so everybody, play it on V5 while you can, it'll work a lot better that way. Aside from that (which you couldn't and can't control) the case really was top-notch in every traditional category. Presentation, Gameplay/Mystery, Story/Plot, everything was incredible. My first attempt at a proper review (I'm ignoring my pseudo, rambling reviews of the past) goes in the spoiler below.

Spoiler : Review for Turnabouts of the Father; spoilers inside :
Presentation
How you made this trial in four days is honestly beyond me. You did everything imaginable to put together a case that looked stellar in so short a time span. I refer to pauses, shakes, flashes - all executed with precision and in moderation. Admittedly, I felt like there were some shouting spots where a shake could've been helpful but wasn't used, but I tend to overuse the shakes, so don't listen to me on that one. Your use of flashes, I thought, was especially commendable; it's a simple tool, but use the flash right and the emotional highlights of a scene grow much stronger. Additionally, there was some awesome use of APNG and SVG to create fades and the like

Really, I have nothing bad to say about your presentation. I had a couple nitpicks but that's all they were - nitpicks! Ones that don't really need to be fixed at all. Anything else that happened was the V6 player being weird and creating line breaks where they don't belong; I suppose I should report that to the bug reports forum. Really, guys, play this on V5 while you can so that stuff doesn't break.

And you know what the best part is? We haven't even gotten into the true meat of the case!


Gameplay/Mystery

This. Was. Awesome. I myself am lousy at solving mysteries and puzzles (I have many fond memories of brute forcing Adrian Andrews's testimony before giving up and consulting a walkthrough) so I consulted your walkthrough more than once and it was very helpful. Now, speaking from the perspective of what could be construed as the average Joe of mysteries (I like 'em, but not a ton, and I ain't the greatest at solvin' 'em) this mystery was very well constructed and the gameplay that was designed to allow the player to explore this mystery was executed fantastically. Others have spoken on it, but I want to reiterate some of their points. I, myself, was completely pulled into Apollo's mindset. I was really thinking that we'd figured it out (I did get a few contradictions on my own (not most of them, though)) and I felt so pumped up "cornering" our "killers" (I've read some Agatha Christie, specifically Hercule Poirot - and those who have also read the book I am thinking of will understand why I was so easily on board with the idea of "the killer was everybody!"). Fact is, I so fully adopted that belief that when Apollo stormed out of the trial in fury, I was shocked. I really believed Ares. I sided with him. I was with him all the way in pinning down Thalassa as Leviathan and finding out that Ares was wrong... crushing. Painful. Careful re-examination of the self and whether or not I had been thinking clearly the whole time considered, carried out, and discovered to have been absolutely necessary. You truly drew this player in at least and you suckered me beautifully.

Speaking of me, the player, this is where the gameplay comes in, which was magnificent. The use of the super objections, as stated before, was great. The "contradictions" and "theories" were all very clear and made sense (in the context of being really absurd), even when I had to look them up (one of my favorite parts of mysteries is realizing how blind I'd been and how the answer was there the whole time). I've heard horror stories of super objections, but these ones worked; as mentioned I was able to get some of the objections on my own (but definitely not the supra-objection. Truth be told, I decided it was better to not risk it). All in all, a solid mystery with solid gameplay that made sense as we went along and makes sense in hindsight too. To quote Professor Means, "Gold star!"

And you know what the best part is? We haven't even gotten to the real, true meat of the case!


Story/Plot

Alright, I lied. We kinda already got to it. Plot and mystery bleed into each other quite a lot, so it's natural. You already got my thoughts on how well your story sucked me in, how I became as delusional as Ares about the "solution" to the case in the end, so I won't repeat that. Instead I'll focus on the rest of the story: Apollo's story, Ares's story. How it all fits, it ties together, how it works so beautifully.

You have created a cast of astonishingly human characters. Apollo, Ares, Franziska - they form the heart and soul of this case and their story turns this case from being a simple locked room horror to being an incredibly poignant and at times heartrending story of loss, guilt, and the effects of the former two. Apollo's rage at Ares sometimes had me stunned, but he did have something of a right to it considering what Ares had done. Seeing the story unfold as Apollo is slowly drawn into Ares's delusion before ultimately rejecting it (as well he should) and then later coming back to pull Ares out of it too is an incredible experience. Once again, I find myself rambling, so instead of speaking generally I'll try to pinpoint a few moments that were especially powerful for me.

My favorite part of the case is definitely the part where Ares is pressing Thalassa's "testimony" and instead of asking about her testimony he says things that come to mind. "I love you once," talking about how he was never a good father, and all the like. It's a powerful scene filled with self-reflection as we watch Ares reach the unavoidable conclusion that he must've reached a thousand times before, whether consciously or not. He did something horrible and he can't undo it. And that guilt is what drove Ares to do what he did, to find patterns where there were none. He couldn't accept that he had made a mistake that he couldn't fix, he couldn't accept that there was no way he could bring justice to the situation. That scene is where we truly see Ares: desperate, broken, clawing, screaming for a way out of the nightmare he has found himself trapped in, a nightmare that he can find no one to blame for but himself. It's tragic, it's raw, and it was very, very real to me. It all made Ares human.

Hm, I'm rotten at these reviews, aren't I? Here I start a section about "plot" and now I'm going on and on about how you wrote the characters. I'll cut myself off before I waste too much of your time. Ferdie said so much about this case there's not a lot to add.


Conclusion

Turnabouts of the Father is many things. It is a locked room with no solution - a locked room that, ultimately, is exactly what it seems to be. It is the story of a son who slowly gets sucked into a delusion, only to realize his folly and ultimately reject it. It's the story of a broken father who, instead of facing his mistakes and moving on into the future, wallows in the past in an effort to avoid it. It's the story of a player who ends up being in for the twist of a lifetime, one that he or she won't see coming not because of obfuscation on the part of the creator - but because of our own blindness brought about by what we expect to happen in cases. DWaM's Turnabouts of the Fathers is all of these things and it works so well as a cohesive unit. There's nothing more for me to say that hasn't already been said than that (and even this has kind of already been said).


I just want to reiterate that this case was incredible to play through. I need to get around to the rest of your work (The Empty Turnabout is next on my list, though I assume Turnabout Tomorrow should probably be somewhere on my radar too), but if this and The Assistant's Turnabout have shown me anything, it's that you do some pretty amazing work.

...

...

And in four days?! When did you sleep?! :shock:
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Powerstar9 » Mer Avr 15, 2015 9:32 am

Hello! I'm new to these forums and the game series itself :larry: , and I just gotta say, I loved this trial (3rd one I've played). Quite a refresher since I played Turnabout Tomorrow, which happened to be insanely hard. I've only played the first phoenix wright game (up to case 3 so far), so I don't have much experience with features such as Pysche-locks, Super-objections, and presenting profiles. Guess that's a barrier I have to break through I guess.

My experience (in no order whatsoever :| )
Spoiler : :
After getting to the part where you explain the red text, the game sent me back to the first testimony(rebuttal) and added the Judge and Detective Gumshoe in Profiles. Was that intentional or not?
I admit, I had to look at the walkthrough for Ares' part because I found myself still in "Apollo" mode, meaning I couldn't think through it like Ares is supposed to do. Should've learned from Turnabout Proxy, since coming into that trial trying to be like Phoenix Wright can actually screw you over.
The final part to the game I somewhat guessed on it. I chose Crime Records w/o even looking through it, but I looked through Larry's profile, and somehow, I managed to piece it all together. I didn't see how I was supposed to piece it until I saw the dialogue, which specifically refers to the Crime Records details. Funny, isn't it?


Well, I really enjoyed it. Twas a fine made case, it was. Now I just need to actually finish the cases in the phoenix wright trilogy in order to be more familiar with the game itself... ta ta for now! :larry:
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par lionheart005 » Mer Août 12, 2015 11:52 am

Hey, i know i'm a bit late to party with this but have to say it. This by far one of my favorite cases i've played on this site. It was so well written, and while the Super Objections threw me off in the beginning, nothing was impossible with alittle outside the box thinking. I think the only thing i got stuck on was the optional CE, but overall I enjoyed myself. Looking forward to playing more of your cases.

Just a quick question, That Umineko reference at the end, Did that change anything in the game or was that just a nod to the "When they Cry"? Just curious.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Drakyle » Dim Août 16, 2015 5:50 pm

I can't figre out how to do the super objection or where the option is can someone offer guidance on this?
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Calvinball » Dim Août 16, 2015 6:02 pm

Press a statement. You'll get an option to either press or make a Super-Objection.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Envy_The_Jealous » Dim Août 30, 2015 1:03 am

Well...I'm VERY confused right now...I just started out with this case, and I know what I want to say, but I've found no point at which the game will let me say it.
Spoiler : :
In the first Rebuttal from Franziska, all I can think of is that "The Friend" should have been able to see through the dining room window before he entered the house. Nowhere I think it would make sense to present the window or house info has given me anything but failure. Am I overlooking something, or am I just being dumb again?


EDIT: Never Mind, I just didn't see the walkthrough at the top of the thread. Derp.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par The Anwser » Lun Août 31, 2015 7:47 pm

Wow. I just played through this, and it was incredible, as are most of your work. Few points:

Spoiler : :
1. I kinda figured out the Thallassa thing instantly; a combo of spot-the-murder logic, coupled with the slightly out of place reference to her show and hypnotism skills. That being said though, the bit at the end kicked me all the harder because of it (was kinda looking forward to an epic Thallassa show down.)

2. I LOVED the plot. Kinda always been a sucker for father son plots, but this was really well written. Like, really well written.

3. I really wanna know what the deal with Trucy, Maya, Phoenix and Kristoph was, even if there was nothing to begin with.
Dernière édition par Enthalpy le Mar Sep 01, 2015 2:11 am, édité 1 fois.
Raison : Putting more of the post in spoiler tags.
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The Super object? 

Message par MRwright » Dim Nov 15, 2015 7:00 am

How do you use the super OBJECT? LIKE HOW!?
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Calvinball » Dim Nov 15, 2015 4:48 pm

Assuming you've activated the super-objection (I think you have to solve the first non-super objection puzzle first?), if you press a statement you get the option to either press or super-object. Then you select super-object. It asks you to select a piece of evidence, and you do. Then it asks if you need more evidence, and since you need EXACTLY two pieces of evidence, you say yes and you add one more piece of evidence. Then you super-object. Also, there's an option to back down if at any point you think better of your super-objection.

In Turnabouts of the Father, super-objections involve two pieces of evidence together proving a contradiction or an alternate possibility. Somehow, their combined implications are enough to either throw the statement into question or suggest a variant course of action. (This "alternate possibility" business is unique to TotF, though)
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par Tharthan » Ven Déc 11, 2015 7:59 am

I just played through this trial, and this thought just came up in my mind during it but could this have taken place in a scenario in an alternate universe to the canon in which

Spoiler : :
Dahlia Hawthorne never did the poisoning thing on Phoenix Wright, or at least Phoenix Wright wasn't defended by Mia Fey in the murder trial?

If so, this all makes sense, if we consider Trucy Smith to be somehow related to her canon father's alias "Shadi Smith"

And Thalassa wasn't Apollo's mother.


Because if it is then that would make sense.

Also, in regards to the ending bit:

Spoiler : :
I too believe that too much knowledge can corrupt (more specifically too much of one kind of knowledge generally speaking). Too much of anything mundane is bad, frankly put.

The ending bit is... interesting to say the least. I'm happy that Apollo stayed around. Very happy.

When something stinks, it's usually the Butz, as they say!

It was very touching, I must say. Very touching.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par ThatDanganronpaFan » Lun Avr 17, 2017 6:44 pm

That was such a great case. I enjoyed it.

Spoiler : :
My favorite part was Ares's Supra-Objection. That was the loudest objection I ever heard XD
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