[T] A Laggy Turnabout ★

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Re: [T] A Laggy Turnabout ○ 

Postby Tiagofvarela » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:05 pm

Currently performing maintenance on the case, so I'll be taking it down temporarily.

This may break your save games if you are in the middle of something. Or it might not, I'm not sure.

I'll also be rewriting certain parts, taking into account the feedback I've received, and writing new ones. One of the reasons the ending and characterisation may feel rushed is because one more cross-examination, which never materialised, was planned. I'll be working on its materialisation over the coming days. Things could go very very wrong. Be worried. Worst case scenario nothing changes. So don't be worried.

Edit: Wow, one part of the trial was broken and neither I nor anyone ever noticed. The joys (and pains) of a trial with a stupid amount of small divergences.
A Laggy Turnabout ★
A Batty Turnabout ★
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Upcoming: A Courtly Turnabout, A Clumsy Turnabout, A Needy Turnabout
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ○ 

Postby Tiagofvarela » Wed May 03, 2017 8:47 pm

The case is up once again. Updates were very light, as I have postponed the new cross-examination indefinitely, when I realised it was ultimately irrelevant to the case.
A Laggy Turnabout ★
A Batty Turnabout ★
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Upcoming: A Courtly Turnabout, A Clumsy Turnabout, A Needy Turnabout
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Bad Player » Mon May 08, 2017 3:28 am

get ready
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Enthalpy » Mon May 08, 2017 3:31 am

i never saw it coming

This trial's been due for a QA review for some time! Good luck.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson

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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Tiagofvarela » Sat May 27, 2017 11:44 pm

Fades stopped working in all my trials, for some reason, and on top of that I realised that I have no idea where I was hosting those things, which means I was probably hotlinking without meaning to, but I've now reuploaded them myself, and they're working again.

My apologies if this small update killed your saves.
A Laggy Turnabout ★
A Batty Turnabout ★
A Tricky Turnabout ★
Upcoming: A Courtly Turnabout, A Clumsy Turnabout, A Needy Turnabout
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Gosicrystal » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:06 pm

Tiago, I found these technical flaws last time I played the case (before the fade update). Please make sure to check if they're still there:
* Apollo's sprite appears next to Stuffy's after Stuffy says adding statements is cheating
* The green text after the verdict has a "male" sound instead of a "typewriter"
* Trucy has a male voice in the bonus content

With that out of the way, nice curious little case. I didn't really see the murder method coming at first, but I'm glad because that kept the suspense and the mystery for me for a long time. It's definitely nice to see that you accept more than one input when pointing out contradictions and in prompts, something that not even Capcom usually does! Good job on having more than one ending, too: it's refreshing to see a case with alternate universes that the player can access depending on their choices, which for the most part in Ace Attorney are very scripted and unilateral (you only have one real correct choice to advance the plot). I also liked the amount of bonus content; I would totally put something like that at the end of my own case! :D Finally, as it has already been said in this thread, while Stuffy is a joy of a character, I can't say the same about the witnesses, unfortunately. It would've been great if they had some more personality and crazy quirks (other than using dynamite). But even so, this case is good. The logic of the puzzles was mostly good, and that's always a big thumbs up from me (diabolical cross-examinations and nonsensical contradictions and prompts make me hate a case very quickly, but this is not the case with The Laggy Turnabout).

So to some up, good job on this, Tiago, and I hope to see even better quality cases from you in the future. :D
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Tiagofvarela » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:41 pm

Gosicrystal wrote:Tiago, I found these technical flaws last time I played the case (before the fade update). Please make sure to check if they're still there:
* Apollo's sprite appears next to Stuffy's after Stuffy says adding statements is cheating
That's... a surprisingly straightforward bug. I wonder why nobody noticed...
It's probably one of those small, three frame long additions that are sometimes made to the whole thing.

* The green text after the verdict has a "male" sound instead of a "typewriter"
Not sure where the issue is. All of them were set to Auto, which should mean all is well. Regardless, I've manually set them to typewriter.
* Trucy has a male voice in the bonus content
Psshh, "bonus content". I fixed it just for you, but I don't particularly care for bugs in that section.

With that out of the way, nice curious little case. I didn't really see the murder method coming at first, but I'm glad because that kept the suspense and the mystery for me for a long time. It's definitely nice to see that you accept more than one input when pointing out contradictions and in prompts, something that not even Capcom usually does! Good job on having more than one ending, too: it's refreshing to see a case with alternate universes that the player can access depending on their choices, which for the most part in Ace Attorney are very scripted and unilateral (you only have one real correct choice to advance the plot). I also liked the amount of bonus content; I would totally put something like that at the end of my own case! :D Finally, as it has already been said in this thread, while Stuffy is a joy of a character, I can't say the same about the witnesses, unfortunately. It would've been great if they had some more personality and crazy quirks (other than using dynamite). But even so, this case is good. The logic of the puzzles was mostly good, and that's always a big thumbs up from me (diabolical cross-examinations and nonsensical contradictions and prompts make me hate a case very quickly, but this is not the case with The Laggy Turnabout).

So to some up, good job on this, Tiago, and I hope to see even better quality cases from you in the future. :D

My primary concerns were Stuffy and that the player would never get frustrated at the game, and I think it shows. I made it so the case tries to accept all the player's attempts to express himself, and I tried to ensure that the contradictions were fair. Any contradictions that rely on memory (that is, that could potentially lead a forgetful player to get stuck without any way out) have a way out that doesn't require presenting the detail you forgot about or have particularly explicit hints in the penalty conversations. Other contradictions rely on direct contradictions to what's on the court records, or special cases, such as contradicting the press conversation, are also acknowledged.

Anyhow, with every review I am made more acutely aware that the witnesses are simply not that good.
Spoiler : :
I always knew Johnson had too small a role for me to work with, given that I had no personality for him, and Violeta's nothing special. Ema does her role and that leaves Dayna, who I thought was fine up until the truth about the time of death is revealed. Where she just turns into generic "nooo" sayer. Apparently not. I already rewrote her once, but it doesn't seem to have been enough.
Details like her loving Johnson or her having personality issues, to a certain extent, similar to her dead husband's don't seem to be conveyed clearly enough. Johnson's bitterness at what happened to him might be there, but he, the person, still lacks a personality...
I don't know if one day I'll rewrite these people, but it's likely going to be more trouble than it's worth, and I'd much prefer to move to my other cases. You know, cases with characters that have actual personalities and stuff.

You don't want bonus content in your case, and the reason's two-fold. Firstly, the bonus content only exists because I scrapped some 1000 frames of work. That's not a good sign. Secondly, the fact that its there increases the frame count, which means that editing the trial is much slower and buggier, and one of my PC's can no longer handle it. One of the main reasons I may have given up on writing more content for it, as originally planned.
So, yes. Bonus content basically means: You done goofed.
A Laggy Turnabout ★
A Batty Turnabout ★
A Tricky Turnabout ★
Upcoming: A Courtly Turnabout, A Clumsy Turnabout, A Needy Turnabout
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Gosicrystal » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:31 pm

Well, I understand your point about the inconvenience of creating a bonus content section, but if it's not huge and adds behind-the-scenes depth to the case, I think it can be worth it. There are many ways to add bonus content other than showing a very long deleted scene.
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Bad Player » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:40 am

Sorry for the delay. Seems there was some lag

Spoiler : wheee :
I need to start with "check 1," which checks if the story and gameplay are good in general. And they are. So... check.

36: You should develop a little more why Brushel doesn’t tell Polly what’s going on. You can do it convincingly in the world of crazy AA characters… but you need to really explain why they’re acting this way, rather than just sliding through it.
151: The “title frame” for testimonies/CEs shouldn’t be timed
288: You should also have a bit more on Stuffy just suddenly accuse someone who isn’t the defendant. Yes he’s an airhead, but… we should get to see his realization of why what he did was stupid and have him try to backpedal/explain. Seeing how the characters react to and resolve these ridiculous things that they do help develop them as actual characters, rather than puppets just doing what the author tells them to do.
269: You should only be able to add the statement to the testimony once
301: Says the guy who was talking about “rumours” before
302: …Oho. You also then go to the previous statement rather than the next one
446: I would change “one of the witnesses” to “witness’ testimony.” We only know of one witness so far, and the problem is with the testimony rather than the witness herself, so…
447/740: Again, I’d change “witness” to “witness’ testimony.” (Or maybe “what I know about the witness’ testimony.”)
532: I was going to just not mention this, but it’s nice for you to address it yourself :P
2742: I think maybe there should be music in this part or something…
4696: Apollo’s sprite appears but it doesn’t change to the defense bench
1573 (& throughout): I think this should be “butt,” not “bud” (or “end”)
3336: “Just” the murder weapon… Someone should point out it’s still a useable gun xD
3292: We shouldn’t be able to do this sequence twice
3471: I don’t think Apollo should go so quickly to “he was shot before he entered the sideroom!”. Instead, Apollo can point out that there was a time lag between Travis being shot and actually dying, so if Dyna heard a shot and rushed in, Travis should have still been living. You can then get a multiple choice question on whether Dyna is lying or not. If you say she’s lying, then Apollo says that Travis hadn’t actually died at that time… and everyone else points out that it would still have been Brushel who shot him. And if you believe her, it continues as normal, with Apollo meaning that Travis must have been shot earlier… so he could have been shot by someone else, before Travis entered the side room.
3101: You should clarify this sequence to make it clear what you’re talking about. I mean the issue isn’t that “he had no time to die,” or that there was no shot in the side room—that’s what Apollo wants, since if the shot wasn’t in the side room, the case against Brushel crumbles! The problem that needs to be solved, and that gets solved by the present, is how/why Travis was walking around normally with a bullet in his back. So I think this conversation should be changed a bit so that Apollo can argue that it was by someone else besides Brushel outside the side room, then everyone else questions how Travis could have then just been walking around with a bullet wound.
3899 (& throughout): “Aunt” in “Aunt Dayna” should be capitalized.
4011: This statement is different here from in the CE.
4622: Should be “bailiff.”
4569: Should be “misuses”
In the credits, Violeta’s profile doesn’t disappear, and sometimes the characters mouth moves during the red “credits” frames.


Presentation & Bugs:
Fine, for the most part. No major bugs, and only small presentation hiccups.

Writing & Characterization:
Generally strong and robust. Canon characters are, for the most part, clearly within the realm of their canon personalities. Occasionally the characters act a bit too ridiculous (even by AA standards), but these moments can be fixed by tidying up the writing a bit. For OOCs, the shining star is clearly Stuffy, and boy does he shine bright. The other witnesses are not as impactful, but they each still have enough personality to prevent things from getting stale when they’re on the sale. It’s a bit of a shame Dyna isn’t as memorable considering how much time she spends on the stand, but that’s how it goes.

Proofreading & Clarification:
Just a few minor typos.

Sprites & Graphics:
All fine. It’s a trial-only case, so the only graphic needs are really in the sprites for OCs, which were all good enough.

Music & Sound Effects:
Fine for the most part. For a lot of objects I felt like the music came in a bit late, but this isn’t a major issue.

Case Logic:
This is both where the case shines brightest and feels the most lackluster. First, the good (which there’s plenty of). This case might have the most custom responses of any case on AAO, and custom responses are always great! They help respond to the player when they have a valid but incorrect idea, and can show them where they went wrong rather than just “lol ur wrong.” And here, the custom responses and routes can even change/unlock depending on exactly which presents you made earlier, which really helps it feel like a dynamic mystery game rather than just a straight pre-scripted path. The locked room is interesting, and provides a classic hopeless Ace Attorney feeling for the first half. The solution also presents an interesting moral dilemma for the player and characters. Finally, all the individual cross-examinations and contradictions are fair, clued, and make sense.

Now we get to some of the problems… The biggest issue is that most of the actual mystery-solving is crammed into one tiny segment. And while solving the mystery is really fun, the parts of the case before and after don’t feel quite as exciting. In the first part, we just find minor contradictions in Dyna’s testimony without making much headway into the locked room, and once we solve the locked room there just… isn’t much else to do. Well, there is stuff to do, and you actually do a good job of keeping the ball rolling rather than just immediately going “yup it was Violeta, the end,” but since for the entire segment we know what happened and Violeta is ready to confess at basically any time, it just doesn’t have the same tension and excitement as the previous part. The other big problem is that while there’s an interesting moral problem at the end, it doesn’t get developed or explored very much.

Despite these flaws, the game is still fun. It just isn’t perfect. (And what game is?) These are also problems that I don’t think are easily solved. The entire structure of logic and deductions can’t simply be rearranged, and I think the “easy” killer (along with the “easy” prosecutor) are important to the character of the case. This case also isn’t trying to be some grand epic, so it isn’t a flaw that it doesn’t end up as one. The game is also a good length for what it is, so I’m not sure it’s advisable to add melodrama and harp on the moral problem. So yeah, despite those issues, there’s still lots of good stuff, with a fun locked room, cohesive logic, interesting prosecutor, and well-done presentation.

Spoiler : drumroll :
★ The case is good enough to be featured. Please make the requested changes.
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Enthalpy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:49 am

Congratulations! From what I played during testing, this is well-deserved. I'm looking forward to going through it again after these edits.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson

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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Tiagofvarela » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:27 pm

Thank you for your efforts.

I will slowly but surely start addressing these.
To start with, a bunch of small changes. The bigger issues will be left for time.

Replies in bold.
Bad Player wrote:Sorry for the delay. Seems there was some lag

Spoiler : wheee :
I need to start with "check 1," which checks if the story and gameplay are good in general. And they are. So... check.

36: You should develop a little more why Brushel doesn’t tell Polly what’s going on. You can do it convincingly in the world of crazy AA characters… but you need to really explain why they’re acting this way, rather than just sliding through it.
Hmm... It literally just is Brushel wanting to keep the information for himself. That's why he hid the things related to Travis' problem. He gave us the article mainly because of Cromwell, but if he truly, absolutely didn't want to share anything, he wouldn't have conceded to talking when Phoenix pressured him. Such a shame the bailiff interrupted them.
151: The “title frame” for testimonies/CEs shouldn’t be timed
I only time them for witness testimonies.
288: You should also have a bit more on Stuffy just suddenly accuse someone who isn’t the defendant. Yes he’s an airhead, but… we should get to see his realization of why what he did was stupid and have him try to backpedal/explain. Seeing how the characters react to and resolve these ridiculous things that they do help develop them as actual characters, rather than puppets just doing what the author tells them to do.
That particular bit (if the player got to it) is meant to showcase the fact that he's open to anything. The defendant doesn't have to be the killer. You see this again when he just accepts most of Apollo's claims at face value.
269: You should only be able to add the statement to the testimony once
If this testimony had been made within the same year as some of the later ones, I probably wouldn't have left that it, but back when I started I thought the games also just left them. I'll change this.
301: Says the guy who was talking about “rumours” before
Everyone uses British English; sorry! At least one of the trials I'm working on has characters use different spelling depending on their nationality, actually.
302: …Oho. You also then go to the previous statement rather than the next one
Argh! This first testimony is so broken and messed up it hurts.
I mean the, uh, "code".

446: I would change “one of the witnesses” to “witness’ testimony.” We only know of one witness so far, and the problem is with the testimony rather than the witness herself, so…
Ah... I was considering Ema to be a witness, as she stands on the witness stand. The problem with saying "witness' testimony, though, is that it would make one think of Ema's, and that's not it. The problem here is that Stuffy said the owner heard the shot. So the issue is not in any testimony, even if, indeed, it's a problem with the testimony. Just one we haven't heard yet. I prefer my ambiguous wording, as it'd also help the player look at the profiles instead of evidence, where they might realise the problem.
447/740: Again, I’d change “witness” to “witness’ testimony.” (Or maybe “what I know about the witness’ testimony.”)
The real problem is that I don't want to send a player into thinking about Ema's testimony. I've changed Phoenix's follow-up to mention the witness' testimony, but I'd prefer if the player went looking at the profiles they have and make the connection with her description, so I'll keep the question as "what's wrong with the witness".
532: I was going to just not mention this, but it’s nice for you to address it yourself :P
2742: I think maybe there should be music in this part or something…
Ergh... That one's hard. Just before it has 'logic music' which stops at an emotional moment, and after it's the build-up for the objection itself. But an emotional track for these >8 frames will feel out of proportion...
4696: Apollo’s sprite appears but it doesn’t change to the defense bench
Already fixed by the time this review came out!
1573 (& throughout): I think this should be “butt,” not “bud” (or “end”)
I did intense research and came to the conclusion that 'bud' was acceptable. But whatever, I don't care anymore.
3336: “Just” the murder weapon… Someone should point out it’s still a useable gun xD
I thought that was obvious enough. It's the very joke.
3292: We shouldn’t be able to do this sequence twice
Need to fix that.
3471: I don’t think Apollo should go so quickly to “he was shot before he entered the sideroom!”. Instead, Apollo can point out that there was a time lag between Travis being shot and actually dying, so if Dyna heard a shot and rushed in, Travis should have still been living. You can then get a multiple choice question on whether Dyna is lying or not. If you say she’s lying, then Apollo says that Travis hadn’t actually died at that time… and everyone else points out that it would still have been Brushel who shot him. And if you believe her, it continues as normal, with Apollo meaning that Travis must have been shot earlier… so he could have been shot by someone else, before Travis entered the side room.
3101: You should clarify this sequence to make it clear what you’re talking about. I mean the issue isn’t that “he had no time to die,” or that there was no shot in the side room—that’s what Apollo wants, since if the shot wasn’t in the side room, the case against Brushel crumbles! The problem that needs to be solved, and that gets solved by the present, is how/why Travis was walking around normally with a bullet in his back. So I think this conversation should be changed a bit so that Apollo can argue that it was by someone else besides Brushel outside the side room, then everyone else questions how Travis could have then just been walking around with a bullet wound.
3899 (& throughout): “Aunt” in “Aunt Dayna” should be capitalized.
4011: This statement is different here from in the CE.
The quotes were intentional. Forgetting a word was not.
4622: Should be “bailiff.”
4569: Should be “misuses”
Fixed both.
In the credits, Violeta’s profile doesn’t disappear, and sometimes the characters mouth moves during the red “credits” frames.
A Laggy Turnabout ★
A Batty Turnabout ★
A Tricky Turnabout ★
Upcoming: A Courtly Turnabout, A Clumsy Turnabout, A Needy Turnabout
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Re: [T] The Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Calvinball » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:26 pm

Hey, I remember playtesting this in its earlier incarnations. Congratulations, Tiagofvarela!

Hm... I'm definitely going to have to play this now that it's complete (and Featured)!
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Re: [T] A Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Tiagofvarela » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:45 pm

I've made the requested changes.
Spoiler : Reply to Bad Player :
Bad Player wrote:269: You should only be able to add the statement to the testimony once
Turns out there was already code in place to very easily allow me to do this... but it was instead used to make sure the fadeouts worked properly with the weird systems I was using.
Yay for testimonies I coded 3 years ago!
Fixed.

302: …Oho. You also then go to the previous statement rather than the next one
I've tried, hard, to fix this sort of thing. But you need to realise that the first cross examination is one hell of a mess. When you press statement 2, you're sent to statement 4, which contains 2's press conversation, and then back to the fadeout in 2, to ensure you move onto statement 3 after pressing 2... except when there's frames to reveal or multiple press conversations, which redirect you all over the place and things are so arbitrarily interconnected that I am not sure every possibility has been covered. There's even to versions of the added statement to make sure things work.
I'm hoping you get sent to the right places, with the right fadeout animations now. I won't try to bugfix this any more. I've done my best.
3 years ago I was such a mess...

3292: We shouldn’t be able to do this sequence twice
Fixed.
(I keep seeing so much code and I have no idea what any of it does! I was hiding and revealing frames left and right during this sequence, but I have no idea which or why! Every time I come back to this case I'm reminded that it is very much my first case. Redundant coding, no lists of variables or important hidden/revealed frames, nothing. I'm surprised it all worked out without imploding at the time.)

3471: I don’t think Apollo should go so quickly to “he was shot before he entered the sideroom!”. Instead, Apollo can point out that there was a time lag between Travis being shot and actually dying, so if Dyna heard a shot and rushed in, Travis should have still been living. You can then get a multiple choice question on whether Dyna is lying or not. If you say she’s lying, then Apollo says that Travis hadn’t actually died at that time… and everyone else points out that it would still have been Brushel who shot him. And if you believe her, it continues as normal, with Apollo meaning that Travis must have been shot earlier… so he could have been shot by someone else, before Travis entered the side room.
3101: You should clarify this sequence to make it clear what you’re talking about. I mean the issue isn’t that “he had no time to die,” or that there was no shot in the side room—that’s what Apollo wants, since if the shot wasn’t in the side room, the case against Brushel crumbles! The problem that needs to be solved, and that gets solved by the present, is how/why Travis was walking around normally with a bullet in his back. So I think this conversation should be changed a bit so that Apollo can argue that it was by someone else besides Brushel outside the side room, then everyone else questions how Travis could have then just been walking around with a bullet wound.
Alright. I've made these changes. It should now go more or less as you describe.


Writing & Characterization:
Generally strong and robust. Canon characters are, for the most part, clearly within the realm of their canon personalities. Occasionally the characters act a bit too ridiculous (even by AA standards), but these moments can be fixed by tidying up the writing a bit.
Where would this be? Aside from a couple of scenes with Phoenix, I was trying to make them in character.


For everyone else, this means that it should now be the very last version, minus any potential bugs propping up and exploding in my face. EDIT: Or me having failed utterly at implementing the requested changes.

I am also excited to announce that the case name has changed back to "A Laggy Turnabout", after I had surreptitiously changed it to "The Laggy Turnabout".
A Laggy Turnabout ★
A Batty Turnabout ★
A Tricky Turnabout ★
Upcoming: A Courtly Turnabout, A Clumsy Turnabout, A Needy Turnabout
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Re: [T] A Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Bad Player » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Spoiler : :
Ema's testimony 1:
You can get the Fingerprinting Report "added" multiple times
I didn't check myself, but make sure the toolbox and cloth can only be added once

When asked if something is wrong, if you present the fingerprint analysis then say there is something weird, there's no TAKE THAT! on the subsequent present.

Dyna testimony 2
The added statements should only be able to be added once

Fix these (if you can) and then it'll all be good
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Re: [T] A Laggy Turnabout ☆ 

Postby Bad Player » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:36 am

★ The QA inspection is complete. This case is now featured. Congratulations!
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