[T][CE][SoJ]Turnabout Imperfect ●

Find and discuss trials made by other members and showcase your own trials.

Modérateurs : EN - Forum Moderators, EN - Trial Reviewers

Règles du forum

[T][CE][SoJ]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par Gamer2002 » Dim Juil 09, 2017 5:22 pm

Turnabout Imperfect
The winner of "No Pressure" competition

Trial Former
Trial Latter



Spoiler : Guide to Winning :
Everything written in red is absolutely true.
But always trust this guide, it will only lead you to winning this trial. It will never lead you to be penalized.

Part 1
Pick a choice in front of Edgeworth.

Pick a choice in front of Edgeworth.

Pick a choice in front of Danielle. I guarantee the result is always the same.

Answer to the Judge.

Pick your opening statement.

Call Ema Skye.

Ema Skye’s CE

3rd statement
Don’t worry about your choice.

4th statement
Don’t worry about your choice.

6th statement
When Apollo makes a remark, pick anything.
When Apollo makes a claim, you can concede here.

9th statement
Hotel Receipt counters the first claim.
You can concede to the second claim.

Post Ema Skye’s CE

Call Danielle Alon

Danielle Alon’s CE

1st statement
If Apollo presses Danielle first, you can let his first question.
If you pressed the statement first, or Apollo already asked his first question and you let it to be answered, you can object.

2nd statement
If Apollo asks a question, you can let it be answered.
Following applies only when this statement is pressed for the first time:
Object.
If you conceded during Ema’s 9th statement, Apollo makes a claim. Counter it with Interview – Justice or Interview – Cykes.
Regardless, Apollo makes another claim. I guarantee you can only concede here.
If Apollo makes a remark, object.
If Apollo makes a claim, it’s better to counter it with a right evidence.

3rd statement
If Apollo asks a question, you can let it be answered.

4th statement
You can let or object to the first question.
You can let or object to the second question as well.

Post Danielle Alon’s CE

You can rest your case here, ending Part 1.

Part 2

For preparing a testimony, this guide recommends you to make all the statements strong, and only negate the second one. This guide will tell you how to make this testimony stand.

Pick a choice at the end of recess.

The proceedings should go smoothly here.

Danielle Alon’s 2nd CE
1st, 2nd and etc refers to the order of statements seen during the preparation. Don’t get confused if you decided to skip a statement and it won’t appear.

Franziska doesn’t press any of those statements, even if you choose to press them.

1st statement
Counter a claim with Evidence Law Book.
If you follow this guide, you can conceded past the first claim. If you did your own things, think about them.

2nd statement
If you didn’t negate this statement, you are on your own.

3rd statement
You can let or object to the first question.
If you follow this guide, you can let or object to the second question.

4th statement
Let the first question.
Object to the second question.

Reach the end of testimony to win this trial.


Spoiler : Guide to Another Ending :
Everything written in red is absolutely true.
But always trust this guide, it will only lead you to another ending than the previous one. It will never lead you to be penalized.

Follow the previous guide until its very last line.

Present Mr. Whippy on 5th statement.

Secret CE
Pressing and presenting will only get you penalized.

2nd statement
Object to Apollo’s remark.

3rd statement
Object to Apollo’s remark.

4th statement
Object to Apollo’s remark.

5th statement
Object to Apollo’s remark.

6th statement
Object to Apollo’s remark.

Reach the end of testimony for another ending.


Spoiler : Guide to the Truth :
Everything written in red is absolutely true.
But always trust this guide, it will only lead you to the Truth. It will never lead you to be penalized, unless it’s necessary to reach the truth.

Part 1

Follow the first guide until you are done with Danielle Alon’s first CE.

Call Phoenix Wright
Don’t object.
Don’t object.
Object.
Present Card or Mia Fey's Murder File.
Profiles of Maya and Pearl Feys are revealed.

Call Athena Cykes or Apollo Justice.
Ask about calling friends.
Pearl Fey’s profile is updated.

Rest your case.

Part 2

Regarding the preparations, still follow the first guide.

If you revealed Maya and Pearl’s profiles, Apollo makes a claim. Counter it with Phoenix Wright, Maya Fey or Pearl Fey.

If you updated Pearl’s profile, Apollo makes a claim. Counter it with Pearl’s profile.

Apollo makes a claim. Counter it with Pearl’s profile.

Counter a claim with Ema Skye.

Counter a claim with Mia Fey’s Murder File or Newspaper Clip.

Counter a claim with Newspaper Clip.

Counter a claim with Evidence Law Book.

You have to concede here.

Counter a claim with Maya Fey or Pearl Fey.

Counter a claim with Newspaper Clip.

Answer with Apollo Justice.

Danielle Alon’s 2nd CE
Follow instructions of the second guide, until you reach the Secret CE.

Secret CE
You have to trust.

Present Maya Fey or Card on 8th statement, if it was amended.

The truth is reached.


Spoiler : Guide to overcoming the Truth :
Everything written in red is absolutely true.
You can trust this guide.

Killer X is impossible to defeat, if you didn’t obtain Depresskiller-X.
It can be obtained in Part 1, during Ema’s CE. You have to press her 7th statement yourself.
It can be also obtained in Part 2, at the end of recess. You have to ask Danielle about herself.

Follow the Guide to the Truth, to its end.

Counter a claim with Interpol Badge.

Confrontation
Describe contact attempts -> Ask Athena -> Memorize Clue
Describe first contact -> Ask Athena -> Confront Clues -> Memorize New Clue (you get it now from Describe first contact)
Describe contact attempts -> "Problems"? -> Confront Clues -> Memorize New Clue (you get it now from Describe contact attempts).
Describe recess call -> Sprit Channeling -> Confront Clues.

Final Showdown
How you investigated? -> Ask Athena -> Memorize Clue
What about the leak? -> Your guess of the leaker? -> Confront Clues -> Memorize new clue (you get it now from "What about the leak"?)
Why defended Athena? -> "Knew" of her innocence? -> Confront Clues -> Counter with Depresskiller-X (the new clue can be obtained from "Why defended Athena"?)


This final guide leads to a preview of unfinished bonus section of this trial, which is meant to be seen only after finishing the regular game. It’s recommended to not check this guide until you finish the main game.

Spoiler : Guide to a Post-Game Secret :
Everything written in red is absolutely true.
You can trust this guide.

Start from the very beginning.

Stay silent to Edgeworth.

Stay silent to Edgeworth.

Choose anything in front of Danielle.

Ask the judge for further proceedings.

Choose firm opening statement.

Call Phoenix Wright.
Don’t object.
Object.



Spoiler : credits :
Writing: Gamer2002

Proofreading: FenrirDarkWolf, Tiagofvarela

Custom Graphics:
Mick
Sligneris
Lind
Hesseldahl
ApolloGrimoire
Rajin
SuperAj3
ShiroForever
Hesseldahl
Silver Glas
mercurialSK
Anyare
DragonTrainer
Greeny


Part 2 wasn't fully proofread, but it didn't hurt during the competition. Maybe we'll fix it sometime, but no pressure :P
Dernière édition par Gamer2002 le Sam Nov 04, 2017 10:40 pm, édité 4 fois.
Image
Image
Image
Gamer2002
 
Message(s) : 516
Inscription : Jeu Jan 22, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par DWard14 » Dim Juil 09, 2017 8:40 pm

Based off only the regret ending:
Spoiler : :
Presentation: Receiving all the evidence and profiles at once was a bit jarring, and I spent a few minutes going through the testimonies. The case file from Turnabout Sisters has no place there until a link is proven. Unless prosecutors just get given the case files for similar cases just 'cuz.

Writing and characterization: All the characters seemed in character from what I saw. The flashback sequences in particular really added to the characters. I'm sure that when I get to see all the other endings there'll be even more impressive character development. The groundwork is there, especially with Edgeworth admitting his bias and the witness' parents. Although Franziska says she learnt to not take things at face value from Wright despite the fact that in AAI she was almost the same as her JFA incarnation.

Proofreading and clarification: The only major spelling error I noticed was the second half being called the Trial Later rather than the Trial Latter.

Sprites and graphics: The cutscenes depicting the murder all looked nice, if basic. The blood on the book didn't look out of place.

Music and sound effects: I noticed the same regal sounding piece being used a lot. I also noticed what sounded like the DD receiving evidence sound effect being used somewhere. Not really good or bad, just an observation.

Case Logic: All contradictions were fair but the best puzzle was actually solved by the defense regarding how the witness should have known about Phoenix. Now's the time to address the 'innovative gameplay' mentioned in Tiagofvarela's review. There's a few dialogue options which seemed a bit pointless aside from the one that got you the family picture but that didn't come into play in my play through. I assume it's related to Phoenix's comment about the answer being in the blood aka family but I'm unsure how I'd use that. I hope this case isn't going to do what Turnabout Proxy did and have the witness/killer be the previous culprits relative who commit the crime to get revenge for their relative's incarceration, because I'd prefer something more original. Speaking of original, I like how your Counter-Cross Examinations are a lot more involved than most others. The 'Answer with evidence' option is a genius feature that I'm surprised no-one else thought of. It's not always obvious which statements you're meant to press though. Am I pressing the statements I need more info from, I need the defenses opinion on, or the Judge needs to hear to help make his verdict? Last but not least, the testimony creation. I'd call it original, if I hadn't played The Omniscient Game which did almost the exact same thing. This version has more options though and the context is very different, creating a testimony around a crime instead of around coffee facts. I also like how you used Apollo's comment about how he perceived something when the witness said she didn't know Phoenix to clue you in so that you negate that statement. The margin of error felt a bit too wide though, allowing you to get up to lose 5 points and still win. The gameplay also felt a bit too tense at times considering the contest. Also there aren't really any twists on the main path making the whole main journey feel slightly pointless up until the really abrupt twist at the very end and Phoenix saying how you didn't solve anything. I feel it would be more effective if you let player intuition be what makes people realize there's more to this case but I guess any kind of menu that let you pass through the different parts of the trial conveniently would give that away so this isn't really a complaint.

I'll expand on this when I work out how to get the good ending. I bet it's either to do with the witness' parents or the blood on the book.
DWard14
 
Message(s) : 15
Inscription : Mar Mars 07, 2017 7:54 pm
Genre: Masculin
Langues parlées: English

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par Gamer2002 » Dim Juil 09, 2017 9:07 pm

DWard14 a écrit :Based off only the regret ending:
Spoiler : :
Presentation: Receiving all the evidence and profiles at once was a bit jarring, and I spent a few minutes going through the testimonies. The case file from Turnabout Sisters has no place there until a link is proven. Unless prosecutors just get given the case files for similar cases just 'cuz.
Edgeworth told you he gave this to you just in case, because he suspects a link.

Writing and characterization: All the characters seemed in character from what I saw. The flashback sequences in particular really added to the characters. I'm sure that when I get to see all the other endings there'll be even more impressive character development. The groundwork is there, especially with Edgeworth admitting his bias and the witness' parents. Although Franziska says she learnt to not take things at face value from Wright despite the fact that in AAI she was almost the same as her JFA incarnation.

Proofreading and clarification: The only major spelling error I noticed was the second half being called the Trial Later rather than the Trial Latter.
And that should clue you in how the proofreading went for the part 2 ;P

Sprites and graphics: The cutscenes depicting the murder all looked nice, if basic. The blood on the book didn't look out of place.

Music and sound effects: I noticed the same regal sounding piece being used a lot. I also noticed what sounded like the DD receiving evidence sound effect being used somewhere. Not really good or bad, just an observation.

Case Logic: All contradictions were fair but the best puzzle was actually solved by the defense regarding how the witness should have known about Phoenix.

Your job was to see this coming, now you have to forever live with not being awesome enough :p

Now's the time to address the 'innovative gameplay' mentioned in Tiagofvarela's review. There's a few dialogue options which seemed a bit pointless aside from the one that got you the family picture but that didn't come into play in my play through. I assume it's related to Phoenix's comment about the answer being in the blood aka family but I'm unsure how I'd use that. I hope this case isn't going to do what Turnabout Proxy did and have the witness/killer be the previous culprits relative who commit the crime to get revenge for their relative's incarceration, because I'd prefer something more original. Speaking of original, I like how your Counter-Cross Examinations are a lot more involved than most others. The 'Answer with evidence' option is a genius feature that I'm surprised no-one else thought of. It's not always obvious which statements you're meant to press though. Am I pressing the statements I need more info from, I need the defenses opinion on, or the Judge needs to hear to help make his verdict? Last but not least, the testimony creation. I'd call it original, if I hadn't played The Omniscient Game which did almost the exact same thing. This version has more options though and the context is very different, creating a testimony around a crime instead of around coffee facts. I also like how you used Apollo's comment about how he perceived something when the witness said she didn't know Phoenix to clue you in so that you negate that statement. The margin of error felt a bit too wide though, allowing you to get up to lose 5 points and still win.

Cuz no pressure. Also, lol AA cases where the prosecution has this absurd advantage. Not to mention, 1 point loses are pretty much nothing more than 'that's suspicious!' complaints, only real inconsistency takes away more. And in some situations, a single inconsistency can make you instantly lose.

The gameplay also felt a bit too tense at times considering the contest.

True, but IMO you need to put in effort to actually get a game over, which is nothing more than a mistrial. And even losing points during Danielle's 2nd testimony isn't, technically, a game over. In that sense, you have no pressure.

Also there aren't really any twists on the main path making the whole main journey feel slightly pointless up until the really abrupt twist at the very end and Phoenix saying how you didn't solve anything. I feel it would be more effective if you let player intuition be what makes people realize there's more to this case but I guess any kind of menu that let you pass through the different parts of the trial conveniently would give that away so this isn't really a complaint.

I'll expand on this when I work out how to get the good ending. I bet it's either to do with the witness' parents or the blood on the book.


Have fun in your pursuit of other endings.

Now I've suddenly realized that I'd never let anybody to blindly playtest this without guides that give answers to everything. Oh well.
Image
Image
Image
Gamer2002
 
Message(s) : 516
Inscription : Jeu Jan 22, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par DWard14 » Dim Juil 09, 2017 10:06 pm

Gamer2002 a écrit :
DWard14 a écrit :Based off only the regret ending:
Spoiler : :
Presentation: Receiving all the evidence and profiles at once was a bit jarring, and I spent a few minutes going through the testimonies. The case file from Turnabout Sisters has no place there until a link is proven. Unless prosecutors just get given the case files for similar cases just 'cuz.
Edgeworth told you he gave this to you just in case, because he suspects a link.
Sorry, forgot.

Writing and characterization: All the characters seemed in character from what I saw. The flashback sequences in particular really added to the characters. I'm sure that when I get to see all the other endings there'll be even more impressive character development. The groundwork is there, especially with Edgeworth admitting his bias and the witness' parents. Although Franziska says she learnt to not take things at face value from Wright despite the fact that in AAI she was almost the same as her JFA incarnation.

Proofreading and clarification: The only major spelling error I noticed was the second half being called the Trial Later rather than the Trial Latter.
And that should clue you in how the proofreading went for the part 2 ;P

Sprites and graphics: The cutscenes depicting the murder all looked nice, if basic. The blood on the book didn't look out of place.

Music and sound effects: I noticed the same regal sounding piece being used a lot. I also noticed what sounded like the DD receiving evidence sound effect being used somewhere. Not really good or bad, just an observation.

Case Logic: All contradictions were fair but the best puzzle was actually solved by the defense regarding how the witness should have known about Phoenix.

Your job was to see this coming, now you have to forever live with not being awesome enough :p
Apollo's comment about how she displayed a tell when she mentioned this before was enough of a tip off. If that's what you intended, I'd recommend you remove the bit about the tell and find a way to have to player actually input the answer. However, I ca't think of a way to put something in the CR that would allow that to be presented without giving the game away.

Now's the time to address the 'innovative gameplay' mentioned in Tiagofvarela's review. There's a few dialogue options which seemed a bit pointless aside from the one that got you the family picture but that didn't come into play in my play through. I assume it's related to Phoenix's comment about the answer being in the blood aka family but I'm unsure how I'd use that. I hope this case isn't going to do what Turnabout Proxy did and have the witness/killer be the previous culprits relative who commit the crime to get revenge for their relative's incarceration, because I'd prefer something more original. Speaking of original, I like how your Counter-Cross Examinations are a lot more involved than most others. The 'Answer with evidence' option is a genius feature that I'm surprised no-one else thought of. It's not always obvious which statements you're meant to press though. Am I pressing the statements I need more info from, I need the defenses opinion on, or the Judge needs to hear to help make his verdict? Last but not least, the testimony creation. I'd call it original, if I hadn't played The Omniscient Game which did almost the exact same thing. This version has more options though and the context is very different, creating a testimony around a crime instead of around coffee facts. I also like how you used Apollo's comment about how he perceived something when the witness said she didn't know Phoenix to clue you in so that you negate that statement. The margin of error felt a bit too wide though, allowing you to get up to lose 5 points and still win.

Cuz no pressure. Also, lol AA cases where the prosecution has this absurd advantage. Not to mention, 1 point loses are pretty much nothing more than 'that's suspicious!' complaints, only real inconsistency takes away more. And in some situations, a single inconsistency can make you instantly lose.
A: The contest said the trial doesn't have to be easy, it was mostly about the atmosphere. Also, the player wasn't really told about this beforehand. To me, this didn't take away any pressure it just felt like I was getting away with poor play.
B: It's very are that you actually have to point out multiple contradictions just to discredit a testimony.
C: You have to really try to get those single inconsistency game overs.

The gameplay also felt a bit too tense at times considering the contest.

True, but IMO you need to put in effort to actually get a game over, which is nothing more than a mistrial. And even losing points during Danielle's 2nd testimony isn't, technically, a game over. In that sense, you have no pressure.
I was actually referring to the atmosphere here. I feel as though having the atmosphere being laid back was more important than just allowing you to make a lot of mistakes and have no consequences. When you consider save states most AAO cases are like that anyway. However, that's just my interpretation of the theme.

Also there aren't really any twists on the main path making the whole main journey feel slightly pointless up until the really abrupt twist at the very end and Phoenix saying how you didn't solve anything. I feel it would be more effective if you let player intuition be what makes people realize there's more to this case but I guess any kind of menu that let you pass through the different parts of the trial conveniently would give that away so this isn't really a complaint.

I'll expand on this when I work out how to get the good ending. I bet it's either to do with the witness' parents or the blood on the book.


Have fun in your pursuit of other endings.
I will. I'm looking forward to see where the story goes... Wait, other endings! As in there's more than one other ending?

Now I've suddenly realized that I'd never let anybody to blindly playtest this without guides that give answers to everything. Oh well.

I think the reason I was as critical as I was was because of the glowing review Tiagofvarela gave it so I had the bar set way too high, especially in the gameplay department!
DWard14
 
Message(s) : 15
Inscription : Mar Mars 07, 2017 7:54 pm
Genre: Masculin
Langues parlées: English

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par Gamer2002 » Dim Juil 09, 2017 10:44 pm

Spoiler : :
Apollo's comment about how she displayed a tell when she mentioned this before was enough of a tip off. If that's what you intended, I'd recommend you remove the bit about the tell and find a way to have to player actually input the answer. However, I ca't think of a way to put something in the CR that would allow that to be presented without giving the game away.
It's one thing to realize that Danielle better shouldn't keep claiming that she didn't know Phoenix, and that I intended to be rather obvious. It's another thing to realize how exactly Apollo can prove her wrong. And it's yet another thing to take away from him this option, in other way than just being cautious and telling Danielle to say she somehow could know Phoenix.

A: The contest said the trial doesn't have to be easy, it was mostly about the atmosphere. Also, the player wasn't really told about this beforehand. To me, this didn't take away any pressure it just felt like I was getting away with poor play.
B: It's very are that you actually have to point out multiple contradictions just to discredit a testimony.
C: You have to really try to get those single inconsistency game overs.
The difference with other trials in AA is that there the defense actually points out some big contradictions. Here, Apollo pointing out that Danielle should have know about Phoenix is, pretty much, nitpicking her not knowing a piece of trivia from 12 years ago. And that's what passes as his bigger win.


I will. I'm looking forward to see where the story goes... Wait, other endings! As in there's more than one other ending?

Maybe.

I think the reason I was as critical as I was was because of the glowing review Tiagofvarela gave it so I had the bar set way too high, especially in the gameplay department!

Well, keep playing ;]
Image
Image
Image
Gamer2002
 
Message(s) : 516
Inscription : Jeu Jan 22, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par DWaM » Dim Juil 09, 2017 11:40 pm

I had a lot of fun with this one and overall I'd say I probably like it the most out of the submissions I've played so far, simply because of the ridiculous amount of effort and detail that went into getting the thing working.

The following contains spoilers for the case. Please don't read until you've actually finished playing the thing.
Spoiler : Elaborations/Criticisms :
I sort of feel like Franziska jumping from "Pearl wasn't informed" inconsistency to "something is horribly wrong" to "they're kidnapped" is sort of way too much of a stretch, especially given that there were numerous alternative, much more plausible scenarios, in my mind. Like, even with the actual truth, I don't see how Phoenix could've predicted for Franziska to reach that conclusion so soon. In fact, even her reasoning from then on felt more like paranoia than actual reasoning.

Maybe it's just me -- like, maybe I missed something -- but to me it didn't feel like the idea of Redd White even having a descendant was placed that well in people's minds for that reveal to be as effective as it maybe could've been. I also found the whole "judge was in someone's pocket" sections kind of weird and out of place, even when I thought about the explanation provided. Just didn't really gel for me.

The overall twist -- the big one, I mean -- was good. I'm usually not a fan of those types of things, but it worked fine here. Although that makes the intro portion kinda questionable, but we can just pretend Apollo walked into the office to a horrified Athena, as she watched Phoenix attempt to do Bloodborne NG+7 with his bare fists or something.

Overall, I enjoyed the writing and the dialogue. There were some weird expressions here and there, but they never impacted my enjoyment of it. Honestly, what made the case for me was mostly Franziska's development and a direction that isn't just "loltruth". I loved that scene in her mind and the closing narration in the end. I don't think I would like the case as much as I do without them.

The gameplay was pretty good. I feel like there wasn't too much of it -- which is good (for me, at least) for the fact that one will probably replay this more than once, just as I did, and want to get through some sections more quickly. There are really only two points where you can screw up and just get locked out of a decent end, but one you can avoid one of them literally at any point in Part 1, and the other you're given two chances for, so I'd say it's fine.

I also really appreciate the little touches that were placed with character's reactions and how they treated you for the things you've done. (I distinctly remember Athena's behavior was different, and that, for example, while questioning Apollo in Part 1, she urged him to give me another question to ask, whereas before I only got 1.) I think it was little details like that that really helped the experience overall.

I found the two "contradictions" in Part 2 to be kind of weird. I get the reasoning for the whip: She says Edgeworth tested everything -> Her blood wasn't tested -> Whip has blood -> Whip represents blood. And the reasoning works on paper, but I don't know. Presenting didn't feel quite right to me, for some reason? It could just be me, but if I was the player, I'd feel like it was one of those shots in the dark. The Nick card also felt a bit weird. I presented it because it just kinda felt like the right piece of evidence for that statement, but honestly it still felt a bit sketchy for me, even I presented it and Franziska explained it, since the situations even now don't feel all that similar to me. Again, these could just be me.

The logic chess sections were fine. I don't really have much to say about them, since I can't say they left that much of an impression on me. I like the work and effort put into them, but overall they more or less felt like "check all options, mix and match those you think will work".

My only real serious complaint with the entire case -- and it's funny, because I'm not usually the type of guy to complain about this -- was the music selection for the second logic chess section. I just flat-out didn't like it. It ended up giving me a headache and instead of enjoying the moment it just made me think about how it's clearly just a reversed theme. It's the one time I just ended up muting the sound, honestly. Again, could just be a thing of taste, but I feel like after such a good thing the game had going with its music, it just completely broke the momentum it was going for for me.


Overall, I enjoyed it, I liked what it did and I do recommend people give this one a play.
Credits to Hersh for the avy! | My Twitter -- I'm mostly here these days
Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image
Image
Image
Image
Avatar de l’utilisateur
DWaM
 
Message(s) : 1692
Inscription : Ven Juin 01, 2012 9:23 am
Localisation : The Kingdom of Ellipses
Genre: Masculin
Langues parlées: English, Croatian/Serbian, some German

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par Gamer2002 » Lun Juil 10, 2017 1:52 am

And here I thought that I should consider waiting a week for you guys to try to beat this before generously handling some more hints ;d

DWaM a écrit :I had a lot of fun with this one and overall I'd say I probably like it the most out of the submissions I've played so far, simply because of the ridiculous amount of effort and detail that went into getting the thing working.

The following contains spoilers for the case. Please don't read until you've actually finished playing the thing.
Spoiler : Elaborations/Criticisms :
I sort of feel like Franziska jumping from "Pearl wasn't informed" inconsistency to "something is horribly wrong" to "they're kidnapped" is sort of way too much of a stretch, especially given that there were numerous alternative, much more plausible scenarios, in my mind. Like, even with the actual truth, I don't see how Phoenix could've predicted for Franziska to reach that conclusion so soon. In fact, even her reasoning from then on felt more like paranoia than actual reasoning.

- That case was so similar to 1-2 that it couldn't be a coincidence
- Apollo also was saying this case was so similar to 1-2 that it couldn't be a coincidence
- That Maya and Pearl's plane had to have an emergency was well too timed
- If a big conspiracy stopped a freaking plane to prevent Maya and Pearl from aiding Athena and Apollo, how come they let them provide information from Phoenix's spirit via phone?
- Isn't it suspicious that Pearl was unavailable during the call?
- ... Why Apollo doesn't see any of this and desperately rushes with his case?
But in the end, Franziska couldn't be 100% sure about anything, which was the point of the debate in her mind. The kidnapping could or could not happen, it could be in favor or against the defendant, Athena could be guilty or innocent, Edgeworth could be a part of conspiracy... Franziska could either do nothing about those possibilities (which was out of option due to her pride) or do something. And the only something, that would be safe and beneficial in any scenario, was to remove Apollo.


Maybe it's just me -- like, maybe I missed something -- but to me it didn't feel like the idea of Redd White even having a descendant was placed that well in people's minds for that reveal to be as effective as it maybe could've been. I also found the whole "judge was in someone's pocket" sections kind of weird and out of place, even when I thought about the explanation provided. Just didn't really gel for me.
I couldn't anywhere before the reveal say "Redd White has a daughter", because that would be too much of a give away. Instead, I opted at doing everything to make this case feel like a fanfic where evil daughter of evil old villain is after revenge. DWard14 speculating the case is about this unoriginal twist is exactly the reaction I intended from the player.
As for the judge, a big, but not explored anywhere else, part of 1-2 was Redd White having even the judge under control. IMO, this works as a sudden "oh crap" moment - you think that you got the White's daughter by revealing her identity, and then you are reminded that White somehow had a dirt on Udgy and now Neela, who is clearly much more smarter from White, can blackmail him as well.


The overall twist -- the big one, I mean -- was good. I'm usually not a fan of those types of things, but it worked fine here. Although that makes the intro portion kinda questionable, but we can just pretend Apollo walked into the office to a horrified Athena, as she watched Phoenix attempt to do Bloodborne NG+7 with his bare fists or something.
I actually had in mind an explanation that they acted out the murder for the sake of making their acting in front of Franziska more believable (with a punchline that it ended with somebody unaware actually calling the police from the hotel), but I felt that the ending was too long already.

Overall, I enjoyed the writing and the dialogue. There were some weird expressions here and there, but they never impacted my enjoyment of it. Honestly, what made the case for me was mostly Franziska's development and a direction that isn't just "loltruth". I loved that scene in her mind and the closing narration in the end. I don't think I would like the case as much as I do without them.

The gameplay was pretty good. I feel like there wasn't too much of it -- which is good (for me, at least) for the fact that one will probably replay this more than once, just as I did, and want to get through some sections more quickly. There are really only two points where you can screw up and just get locked out of a decent end, but one you can avoid one of them literally at any point in Part 1, and the other you're given two chances for, so I'd say it's fine.
It took ton of work to make 4 testimonies. Besides, this all was also meant to be an introduction to the gameplay, while the secret section is supposed to have things go crazy.

I also really appreciate the little touches that were placed with character's reactions and how they treated you for the things you've done. (I distinctly remember Athena's behavior was different, and that, for example, while questioning Apollo in Part 1, she urged him to give me another question to ask, whereas before I only got 1.) I think it was little details like that that really helped the experience overall.

I found the two "contradictions" in Part 2 to be kind of weird. I get the reasoning for the whip: She says Edgeworth tested everything -> Her blood wasn't tested -> Whip has blood -> Whip represents blood. And the reasoning works on paper, but I don't know. Presenting didn't feel quite right to me, for some reason? It could just be me, but if I was the player, I'd feel like it was one of those shots in the dark. The Nick card also felt a bit weird. I presented it because it just kinda felt like the right piece of evidence for that statement, but honestly it still felt a bit sketchy for me, even I presented it and Franziska explained it, since the situations even now don't feel all that similar to me. Again, these could just be me.
With the whip I was just being nasty. But it was my intention to have this be not very obvious, not without Phoenix's hint you get from getting Athena declared guilty. DWard14 suspects that the answer is either book or family photo. Well, we'll see how he manages to solve it.

What the player has to do is to remember that Neela's blood is on the whip (and she is the only person, excluding fantoms in her mind, that Franziska whipped so far), catch on the significance of Manfred telling Dahlia that you can bribe people running civilian registry, and listen to the narrative's screams about Danielle being an evil liar (her taking place of Dahlia after the flashback, Franziska seeing in her Ini and Acro, not to mention Danielle's insulting lack of subtlety in Part 2...). Bit of a long shot to present a whip, perhaps. But otherwise, it could be too easy to skip the ending with a guilty verdict.

As for the card, during the testimony what hit Neela the hardest was pointing out her hypocrisy with her causing collateral damage to people that never wronged her, like Athena. This was even hinted at during her 2nd testimony, if you didn't skip the statement about her not knowing Athena. At that point, bringing up Maya was a fatal blow.


The logic chess sections were fine. I don't really have much to say about them, since I can't say they left that much of an impression on me. I like the work and effort put into them, but overall they more or less felt like "check all options, mix and match those you think will work".

My only real serious complaint with the entire case -- and it's funny, because I'm not usually the type of guy to complain about this -- was the music selection for the second logic chess section. I just flat-out didn't like it. It ended up giving me a headache and instead of enjoying the moment it just made me think about how it's clearly just a reversed theme. It's the one time I just ended up muting the sound, honestly. Again, could just be a thing of taste, but I feel like after such a good thing the game had going with its music, it just completely broke the momentum it was going for for me.
Hm, sadly, opinions vary. I needed a definitive "final battle against Apollo", and his reversed pursuit was thematically perfect.


Overall, I enjoyed it, I liked what it did and I do recommend people give this one a play.


Thanks, and glad you enjoyed it!

Spoiler : question :
But did you get to the secret section? :p
Image
Image
Image
Gamer2002
 
Message(s) : 516
Inscription : Jeu Jan 22, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par Tiagofvarela » Lun Juil 10, 2017 2:22 am

People, I ask of thee: Mess up.

I don't mean fail to attain the truth; you're free to do that. But always remember to take a little time and save state spamming to explore all the mistakes the protagonist can make by presenting the wrong things at the wrong times in wrong order. Fail all those prompts. As a consequence of this trial's structure, unique failure dialogue exists all around, and I believe that is worth knowing, at the least.
A Laggy Turnabout
A Batty Turnabout
Upcoming: A Tricky Turnabout, A Needy Turnabout, A Scholarly Turnabout
Avatar de l’utilisateur
Tiagofvarela
 
Message(s) : 216
Inscription : Jeu Juin 26, 2014 7:16 pm
Localisation : Portugal
Genre: Masculin
Langues parlées: English, Portuguese

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par DWaM » Lun Juil 10, 2017 4:28 am

I just want to touch on two points here. (Replying to Gamer's response to my notes, contains major spoilers obviously)

Spoiler : Responses :
Gamer200 a écrit :I sort of feel like Franziska jumping from "Pearl wasn't informed" inconsistency to "something is horribly wrong" to "they're kidnapped" is sort of way too much of a stretch, especially given that there were numerous alternative, much more plausible scenarios, in my mind. Like, even with the actual truth, I don't see how Phoenix could've predicted for Franziska to reach that conclusion so soon. In fact, even her reasoning from then on felt more like paranoia than actual reasoning.

- That case was so similar to 1-2 that it couldn't be a coincidence
- Apollo also was saying this case was so similar to 1-2 that it couldn't be a coincidence
- That Maya and Pearl's plane had to have an emergency was well too timed
- If a big conspiracy stopped a freaking plane to prevent Maya and Pearl from aiding Athena and Apollo, how come they let them provide information from Phoenix's spirit via phone?
- Isn't it suspicious that Pearl was unavailable during the call?
- ... Why Apollo doesn't see any of this and desperately rushes with his case?
But in the end, Franziska couldn't be 100% sure about anything, which was the point of the debate in her mind. The kidnapping could or could not happen, it could be in favor or against the defendant, Athena could be guilty or innocent, Edgeworth could be a part of conspiracy... Franziska could either do nothing about those possibilities (which was out of option due to her pride) or do something. And the only something, that would be safe and beneficial in any scenario, was to remove Apollo.


Nobody got kidnapped in 1-2 and frankly I can't really see there's any sort of real connection to it in that particular regard. And again -- I'm not really discussing whether or not it's suspicious. My problem is with the leap of logic from "this is kind of weird" to "CLEARLY it must be kidnapping" (it's phrased like "it could be" but then afterwards goes like "yeah they were kidnapped" and rolls with it which honestly felt like it came completely out of the left field.

Coincidences happen. Gumshoe got into a car wreck delivering super-important evidence. A freakin' bridge was lit on fire by a lightning bolt to create a complex crime. My point is, it doesn't warrant calling it suspicious to such an extent when everything Franziska has to work with evidence-wise implies it was just a bad coincidence. If they were kidnapped, why WAS Pearl unavailable during call? Couldn't have Apollo simply lied about getting her on the line, especially since he was the one doing the calls in the detention center? Or, couldn't have there been a much simpler explanation of "she was asleep" or "Maya intentionally didn't want her tell her until they were closer to home for whatever reason" or "Pearl's phone broke and whenever they were talking to Maya she just saw no point on putting Pearl on the line" (that last one I guess is half true anyway so). Either way, going with the assumed timeline of events, Franziska could've concluded any of these things and then later just went "Maya must've just told Pearl about it and had her channel Nick later." Seems much more reasonable than going full-on conspiracy mode. If you want to claim she should've done it because of similarities to 1-2... Iunno. Especially since during 1-2 White's reach in the investigation wasn't THAT powerful. He controlled the witnesses, but investigators? Edgeworth? Eeeehhhhhh... I wouldn't really agree. And honestly, Franziska of all people isn't one to go off making ludicrous theories over just her hunches.



Gamer2002 a écrit :My only real serious complaint with the entire case -- and it's funny, because I'm not usually the type of guy to complain about this -- was the music selection for the second logic chess section. I just flat-out didn't like it. It ended up giving me a headache and instead of enjoying the moment it just made me think about how it's clearly just a reversed theme. It's the one time I just ended up muting the sound, honestly. Again, could just be a thing of taste, but I feel like after such a good thing the game had going with its music, it just completely broke the momentum it was going for for me.
Hm, sadly, opinions vary. I needed a definitive "final battle against Apollo", and his reversed pursuit was thematically perfect.

My problem isn't whether or not it fits in thematically. I just don't think it's a good remix at all, and it genuinely started to give me a headache after a very short while. I didn't like it and I honestly just wanted to be done with that final logic chess section as a result. Whatever actual beat or rhythm the original track had was, for me, just drowned out by the sound of the song reversing and that just distracted me more than anything. It completely removed intensity from the scene for me.

But again, to each his own, etc. etc.
Credits to Hersh for the avy! | My Twitter -- I'm mostly here these days
Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image
Image
Image
Image
Avatar de l’utilisateur
DWaM
 
Message(s) : 1692
Inscription : Ven Juin 01, 2012 9:23 am
Localisation : The Kingdom of Ellipses
Genre: Masculin
Langues parlées: English, Croatian/Serbian, some German

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par ybi » Lun Juil 10, 2017 7:41 am

OMG this game is AWESOME. It has the best prosecutor-side court mechanism as far as I know. The idea of the testimony arrangement system is brilliant. Besides, the plot is also extremely attractive. Since
Spoiler : :
few cases list Phoenix Wright as the victim, and it is really awesome.


But a problem is still worth of being pointed out......

Spoiler : :
I spent two hours on the case yet I could not get any endings other than doubt or regret. Personally,
I believe more hints are needed for players to find a possible way to go beyond the first set of testimony in part 2. I tried to manage the numerical relationship between the testimony points and the doubt points, but the experiment did not have any satisfying outcome, no matter there were more or less testimony points than doubt points. A more comprehensive walkthrough and a lot more clues may be necessary.
ybi
 
Message(s) : 11
Inscription : Lun Juil 10, 2017 7:27 am
Genre: Masculin
Langues parlées: 中文

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par Blizdi » Mar Juil 11, 2017 6:12 am

ybi a écrit :OMG this game is AWESOME. It has the best prosecutor-side court mechanism as far as I know. The idea of the testimony arrangement system is brilliant. Besides, the plot is also extremely attractive. Since
Spoiler : :
few cases list Phoenix Wright as the victim, and it is really awesome.


But a problem is still worth of being pointed out......

Spoiler : :
I spent two hours on the case yet I could not get any endings other than doubt or regret. Personally,
I believe more hints are needed for players to find a possible way to go beyond the first set of testimony in part 2. I tried to manage the numerical relationship between the testimony points and the doubt points, but the experiment did not have any satisfying outcome, no matter there were more or less testimony points than doubt points. A more comprehensive walkthrough and a lot more clues may be necessary.


So far this is what I did and I've been on the path for the true ending, I THINK:
I have to sleep so, this is what I've done so far and I think I'm on the right track
SPOILERS:
Part 1:
Spoiler : :
Press Ema on Alon's belongings, and when you call a witness, present Phoenix Wright, don't object until they mention dead not being able to testify, present Mia's case file,
then present Athena and ask who they contacted

Part 2:
Spoiler : :
Object with Evidence, Maya. Object with Evidence, Pearl. Object with Evidence, Pearl, then did more stuff in imagination world and ended up removing Apollo from the case


The only problem right now is:
Spoiler : :
Can't proceed at Alon's testimony, dunno what to do, if I missed something in Part 1 or made her testimony wrong
Image
Avatar de l’utilisateur
Blizdi
 
Message(s) : 368
Inscription : Mer Juil 03, 2013 3:39 pm
Langues parlées: English

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par ybi » Mar Juil 11, 2017 12:23 pm

Blizdi a écrit :
ybi a écrit :OMG this game is AWESOME. It has the best prosecutor-side court mechanism as far as I know. The idea of the testimony arrangement system is brilliant. Besides, the plot is also extremely attractive. Since
Spoiler : :
few cases list Phoenix Wright as the victim, and it is really awesome.


But a problem is still worth of being pointed out......

Spoiler : :
I spent two hours on the case yet I could not get any endings other than doubt or regret. Personally,
I believe more hints are needed for players to find a possible way to go beyond the first set of testimony in part 2. I tried to manage the numerical relationship between the testimony points and the doubt points, but the experiment did not have any satisfying outcome, no matter there were more or less testimony points than doubt points. A more comprehensive walkthrough and a lot more clues may be necessary.


So far this is what I did and I've been on the path for the true ending, I THINK:
I have to sleep so, this is what I've done so far and I think I'm on the right track
SPOILERS:
Part 1:
Spoiler : :
Press Ema on Alon's belongings, and when you call a witness, present Phoenix Wright, don't object until they mention dead not being able to testify, present Mia's case file,
then present Athena and ask who they contacted

Part 2:
Spoiler : :
Object with Evidence, Maya. Object with Evidence, Pearl. Object with Evidence, Pearl, then did more stuff in imagination world and ended up removing Apollo from the case


The only problem right now is:
Spoiler : :
Can't proceed at Alon's testimony, dunno what to do, if I missed something in Part 1 or made her testimony wrong


Well that is helpful, I believe that
Spoiler : :
without involving Maya and Pearl, this is not going anywhere


However, some certain points are still doubtful.

Spoiler : :
The first one being the selections when facing Alon at the beginning of Part 2. The options seem not to be changed after getting the clue about the Feys. I believe that getting the family photo should be the right choice,
, but I cannot simply rule out the other possibilities. Yet without a method to go beyond Alon's testimony, this discussion seems to be meaningless.

The second point should be the witnesses called to stand in Part 1. I have not tried people other than Phoenix,
Ema and Athena. I don't know whether calling other people could be beneficial.

The third one is who to be removed in the thinking world struggle. I have not exhausted all options, so I don't know any possible outcome of selecting another answer.

And of course, the fourth one which is driving me crazy - WHY IS IT SO F-ING HARD TO GET BEYOND ALON'S TESTIMONY? This b-word is simply not letting anybody to reach a point where you can advance. There is an implication that discrediting her would provide time to bring Maya and Pearl to the scene. However, if you really do so from the perspective of Franziska, you only get the "Error" end, which is even more annoying. As for the option of letting Athena do it, I have not found a possible way to let her break the testimony in a proper pattern.
ybi
 
Message(s) : 11
Inscription : Lun Juil 10, 2017 7:27 am
Genre: Masculin
Langues parlées: 中文

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par Gamer2002 » Mar Juil 11, 2017 1:32 pm

Spoiler : about points :
Points only determine whatever Danielle's testimony is discredited by the defense or not. By now, you already know those both outcomes.


Spoiler : additional useful tip :
If Phoenix doesn't deny that the final testimony could end in any other way, you already had everything you needed.
Image
Image
Image
Gamer2002
 
Message(s) : 516
Inscription : Jeu Jan 22, 2009 10:51 pm

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par Blizdi » Mar Juil 11, 2017 1:56 pm

Got it.

EDIT: GOD DAMMIT GAMER2002 THAT ENDING

Spoiler : DO NOT OPEN IF YOU HAVENT GOTTEN TRUE ENDING :
WHAT IS THIS, ONE HELL OF A TURNABOUT 2.0
Image
Avatar de l’utilisateur
Blizdi
 
Message(s) : 368
Inscription : Mer Juil 03, 2013 3:39 pm
Langues parlées: English

Re: [T][CE]Turnabout Imperfect ● 

Message par ybi » Mar Juil 11, 2017 3:07 pm

Gamer2002 a écrit :
Spoiler : about points :
Points only determine whatever Danielle's testimony is discredited by the defense or not. By now, you already know those both outcomes.


Spoiler : additional useful tip :
If Phoenix doesn't deny that the final testimony could end in any other way, you already had everything you needed.


Thanks for the tips but (sorry for being impolite but this is driving me crazy)

Spoiler : :
I cannot even get to the point where you have Phoenix to testify, plz tell me what is wrong with Alon the B-word and her crazy testimony in part 2. Simply do not have any hint for what to do after introducing the Feys and Franziska's inner struggles. Having tried another hour today.
ybi
 
Message(s) : 11
Inscription : Lun Juil 10, 2017 7:27 am
Genre: Masculin
Langues parlées: 中文

Suivant

Retour vers Your Trials

Qui est en ligne ?

Utilisateur(s) parcourant ce forum : AceJakkidFan et 1 invité