[CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

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bigwins
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[CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by bigwins »

Image

Click the image to play!

Winner of the Keeping It Simple competition,
hosted by Cesar and Southern Corn.
Rookie lawyer Cassandra Bloom takes a murder case- her first ever- as a favor to her cousin.
But when things start going wrong, she finds herself up against a famously unscrupulous prosecutor,
a case that seems impenetrable, and the lingering remnants of her own past.
Spoiler : Credits :
Lind for DA sprites, witness sprites and victim profile
FenrirDarkWolf for detective sprites
Sligneris for extra prosecutor sprites
Silver Glas for defendant sprites
SuperAJ3 for the custom courtroom
TheKayOne for empty lobby background
Phantom for testimony popup
fanfreak247 for Testimony/Cross-Exam/fade popups
Spoiler : Screenshots :
ImageImageImage
Spoiler : Walkthrough :
I had a full walkthrough written up, but tbh it's not even that hard just dm me for a hint if ur stuck
This case contains music from DGS1 and Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright.
Last edited by bigwins on Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Southern Corn
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Re: [CE][T] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by Southern Corn »

Yaaaay, it’s finally out! Everyone please play this, this is a very great case. Excited to see how the ending’s been expanded upon here. This should be fun.

In case anyone here’s curious, these are the awards this case won in the Keeping It Simple comp:
Spoiler : bigwins :
Image First Place Award- Congrats! You are the official expert in keeping things simple!

Image Understands Deadlines Award- For submitting your cases by the deadline- that too complete!

Image Superb Set-Up- For the most promising of premises.

Image Powerful Presentation- Custom art is a most powerful thing. For appropriate fades, good music choices and "MTP".

Image Walter Timothy Faraday Award- Named after the 7th-century Irish playwright so infamous for his plot twists that his initials are linked to the concept to this very day. For [REDACTED].
I’ll try to post our SoC here too once I figure out how to effectively transport Discord DMs in a format that isn’t clunky as heck.
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Enthalpy
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by Enthalpy »

Spoiler : Hint? :
I'm stuck at the final cross-examination and would rather not just look at the walkthrough. I have a small list of things I should be able to present, but haven't found a way to yet:
  • The court bailiffs should be able to attest to whether Roletta was in the defense lobby
  • The lack of ribbon fingerprints should contradict it being possible that Roletta was the killer
  • Isn't it presumptuous to say the police didn't find a poker chip? They could have just not mentioned it for lack of apparent relevance, just like the ribbon.
None of these are things he shouldn't know.

I can't prove "no motive to murder." All I could hypothetically do was show reason to keep her alive, but I don't have that.
I can't prove "murderer not a motive for perjury." It very much is.
I can't prove that Gamble wasn't in the defense lobby, bailiffs aside.
I can't prove when the blood got on the chip... None of the evidence speaks to that.
I also can't prove he knows something he shouldn't. It's bizarre that he came in just in time to tell us to present the chip, and it isn't clear how he "heard" about Roletta's perjury (I don't think that was mentioned since he returned to court?) but that doesn't point to him being the killer.

I also remember that we have unanswered questions: what was the victim doing at the casino and why did she not hide behind the bar? Neither of those seem helpful.

Am I on the right track with any of this?
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Southern Corn
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by Southern Corn »

I'm not the guy who made this case but having played this case already, I can try giving a hint. (Also there's no walkthrough in the OP don't worry.)
Spoiler : Hint :
Try thinking about which piece of evidence points to the defendant more now.
Edit:
Spoiler : continuation :
Actually, looking at your post more thoroughly, I think you're almost on the right track there, Enth. Your list of suspicious things is good, you just have to figure out where to present one of those things.
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by Enthalpy »

Not quite. I stumbled onto the correct answer without having any idea what I was doing.

I liked this case a lot, and I understand why it won the case competition! Many of the contradiction ideas are great, but I think the logic needs to be tightened a bit before they really shine. In the next week or so, I'll have a post with additional details on the tightening, as well as the overall story. The story was another standout aspect, but I get easily distracted by logic in need of tightening. For now, I should get to sleep.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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bigwins
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by bigwins »

Spoiler : Your issues, Enth :
1. True. I kind of meant to suggest via the empty lobby rather than the ones with the bailiffs there that when they show up, they're entering the room from elsewhere, but I didn't make it clear.
2. He's basically claiming that she's guilty even if she didn't touch the ribbon somehow, but this is part of the solution.
3. Also true, but he's educated-guessing it (based on the fact that he already knows it wasn't there).

All the logic in this case is pretty dodgy, admittedly- planning isn't my strong point, lol.

Additionally- and this is also dumb on my part- the logic surrounding that point isn't entirely present in the Court Record. The steps were theoretically supposed to be "he claimed to see her with ribbon and victim did actually have it -> fingerprints being on the chip but not the ribbon means gamble never wore the ribbon -> ribbon was in victim's pocket ---> there's no way to know she had it unless he was alone with the body."

His showing up immediately and having heard about what they were discussing is meant to suggest, somewhat,
that he'd been listening in for the latter half of the trial- but again, it's something I didn't really make clear. For what it's worth, I added a few of these details to his corresponding press conversations.Turnabout Tennis should've won the comp, I know
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DWaM
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by DWaM »

I enjoyed this quite a bit. It was short, but the pacing was handled pretty well, especially for what it was trying to do by the end.
Spoiler : :
My only complaint is that the villain's scheme pretty much hinged on that chip. He could've just left it on the scene instead of taking the risk with just casually dropping it in the lobby. Especially since the police could've very well found it on his person after he was arrested, ensuring him to be well and truly screwed. That, and Cassie might've just not seen it. Another issue with it is meta-reasoning wise, I feel -- dunno if it was just me, but upon seeing the chip I kinda figured he's probably the culprit (since the conditions at the time make it so that nobody but him could've really dropped it, and then with von Karma in the mix...)

Speaking of, von Karma's inclusion was pretty great. Both in terms of adding the tension of "okay, so we lose, but how do we lose and why?" and by the end putting the player in the position of siding with him.

The actual emotional beats were also handled well. The transition to villainy was, as I said, paced pretty well.
Overall, definitely recommended to anyone wanting to go for something short but satisfying.
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by Gosicrystal »

Good case. I like how much custom art and music you have used, and the endgame twist was very powerful, emotionally speaking! However, the protagonist is kind of unlikable and there are two serious problems regarding contradictions. I will detail them below:
Spoiler : :
Both problems are in Gamble's cross-examination. The first contradiction is that, since there was only one door to the back room and from there Gamble couldn't have seen the body with just a peek, she must be lying. However, this doesn't work when you don't make it clear in the map where the door is. It might sound dumb, but it's not. I have played 999 and I know the casino has two doors in that game. In your case, I thought the door was in the bottom right corner, not in the upper left one. Because of this, none of this logic clicked to me. I'd suggest editing the diagram and adding the word "Door" next to the proper one to avoid this confusion. Yes, I see that the upper door has been edited to stand out, but I just thought it had been sealed with a steel plank or something. The change I suggest is an easy way to improve this part.

The second contradiction doesn't shine, either. When I had Gamble add "I saw him stuff something into her breast pocket. It easily could have been that ribbon", I believed I had to present the autopsy report on it because I thought "Hey, this statement would mean that the victim was lying face up, but no one could lie on their back with a knife stuck into it". But no, I had to present it in the next statement. Cassandra's train of logic following the objection is more complicated than it needs to be.
The use of songs from the anime piqued my interest. At first, I thought it didn't fit, but it grew into me. With one exception: the one that's used in the show when previewing the next episode. It's used here when Cassandra makes a powerful objection, but it doesn't... work.

In spite of all of this, I enjoyed this case. The presentation clearly was the strongest aspect with a solid 9.5/10. By the way, I really recommend including that walkthrough to the OP - we authors tend to think our contradictions are easier than they really are.
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bigwins
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by bigwins »

Spoiler : Gosi :
Really glad you liked it, thank you! I'd thought about that first contradiction issue a bit- might clarify that, yeah. The second one was intentional, based on a bit I liked in 3-5, and while I see the issue, I think it's a bit more direct as it is.

Also the first time I've heard anyone call Cassie unlikable, and I actually appreciate it! She's definitely intended to be rough-edged (hence all the swearing) and honestly ended up a bit Sue-ish, and I hope that didn't hurt the emotional stakes of the case too much for you.
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by Gosicrystal »

Spoiler : bigwins :
Oh, I didn't say Cassandra was a Mary Sue. I didn't think so for a second. I just don't like her personality and constant gruff face, but I did like it when she verbally punched von Karma from time to time. That felt good. =) So don't worry, she didn't affect the emotional stakes for me too much. The whole "your cousin is a psychopath who's manipulating you" is a really powerful conflict maker that made me stand on the edge of my seat until the end of the trial. Moreso than the average reveal, because it has an extra layer in that he's part of your family, not just a stranger. Just imagining myself in her situation was heartwrenching.

I forgot to talk about Buddy Faith, too. It's a pleasant surprise to see a murder victim interacting with the player before his demise. You could have went with the easy option (Gumshoe), but went with the hard unexplored option instead, and I admire that.
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Re: [CE][T][DGS♫] For Turnabouts Past ●

Post by Enthalpy »

I'll have a follow-up post later. The way my mind works, I can't focus on narrative aspects (and there's a lot of good story here!) until confusing case logic is resolved. Details in the spoiler.
Spoiler : :
Cross-Examination 1:
* This is a nitpick, but it isn't clear that the witness' statements that they only saw Bloom enter the crime scene excludes the witness. This is implied in the final press conversation, but I think it would be clearer to have this point be brought up earlier. This actually works narratively - von Karma can mention it to prime Cassandra about why the victim wasn't seen. The downside is that it can also make the contradiction easier to find, so think about how you want to do this!
* I thought the problem was "Wouldn't have done that" instead of "Couldn't have seen him," and I still think that's the better answer. I struggle to believe somebody would hide from a stalker in a room they know only has one exit. It makes sense when we learn it was the casino's only unused back room, but until then, it's suspicious. "Couldn't have seem him" isn't a convincing problem because we have no reason to think Wolf had to have seen him. I had assumed that Wolf knew that he'd be working there some other way. You can fix the latter by having Faith be the one to add that Wolf must have seen Bloom. A fix for the first point is trickier, but I'll leave that to you.
* On the back room diagram, the wood bar blended with the wood floor of the bar, and it looked to me like a single wall. The fact that the actual wall is black helps counter this, but could this be made clearer? It tripped me up.

Cross-Examination 2:
* In one of the press conversations, it's said that nobody saw the victim at all in the casino? Don't you want to qualify that? Surely she was seen on-shift.
* I don't understand how Gamble being the one who reported seeing the defendant by the body prevents her from being the person that Bloom filled. (Faith implies that it does in a press conversation about how the witness couldn't have been the impersonator.)
* The contradiction here isn't an actual contradiction, since the witness could have just been scheduled to sing at some time other than 8. A particularly natural possibility is that she was the 7 o'clock singer. Clarifying the statement may be in order.

Cross-Examination 3:
* Could you mark the door on the map? I thought the door was in the place of the missing slot machine. From there, it is completely plausible that the witness saw the body.
* I really like the idea for the breast pocket contradiction, but once again, it isn't a real contradiction as written. I imagined that Bloom raised up that side of the body, but she just didn't mention that minutiae.
* I also like the subtle hint that "Not everything is evidence" when deciding whether to present the poker chip.

Cross-Examination 4:
* The pre-CE hint is misleading. "(Maybe... If we get Ben talking about the case, he'll slip up and say something he shouldn't know!)" What's actually the case is that Ben said something he shouldn't know two cross-examinations back. Similarly, "(All I can do is keep searching for something Ben hasn't thought about... and expose his lies!)" reads to me like I'm supposed to point out something from a current press, not think back to two cross-examinations ago. This is even more misleading given that every press conversation ends with a chance for us to present evidence. "(Do I have evidence that Ben knows something only the killer would know?)" is misleading in the exact same way. "knows" is a present tense verb!
* I like the idea of a contradiction that forces us to review the entire crime and reinterpret past evidence. However, it needs to be crystal clear that we are expected to do that. Right now, it isn't due the last bullet point. Otherwise, the player falls completely off the wrong track. The following bullet points were all things I thought about when trying to find this:
* I had in my notes that we should be able to check with the bailiffs if Gamble was in the lobby, but in the script, it looks like you added some lines to this effect. Either kudos to you for adding them, or shame on me for missing them.
* Why can't I argue that the ribbon fingerprints make him more likely to be the killer than Roletta. Remember that the court thought this was a very strong argument right before CE3.
* Bloom is being a little presumptuous in saying the police didn't find any chips at the scene. They may have been hiding it, just like the ribbon. Again, this is a nitpick, but I was hung up on whether this could be the contradiction, when I was playing this.
* Might I suggest that you slow down during Cassandra's summary of the entire case and walking through exactly what Bloom did, step-by-step? Things have moved so fast in this case that I have a hard time pulling them together. Remember that you've had the player contradict the prosecution case, come up with their own case, have that case be negated, convince the player the prosecution was right, then contradict their own case. After all of that, it's easy to get lost!

Final Present:
* Bloom said, "If I hadn't been able to wrestle it away from her, I would've been dead for sure." That implies a struggle, and I thought getting stabbed in the back happened due to the tumult in the struggle.

Also, why was Wolf at the casino?
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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