[M] Endless Nights - Daybreak

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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Bad Player » Mar Mai 15, 2018 9:05 pm

Spoiler : Mathias :
Remiel: Confident, you say?
Remiel: I simply cannot have that...
Remiel: Detective Gumshoe’s death was instantaneous.
Remiel: Still confident in your theory?
Remiel: I will break your theory on Ms. Basil’s murder as well.
Remiel: Everything Ms. Basil said about Blue Screens Inc.’s inventions and projects is true.
Remiel: In other words, the Super Mega Ultra Adhesive functions properly.
Remiel: You cannot simply grant Mr. Butz free movement that easily.

Spoiler : Rune :
Remiel: This is a test.
Remiel: You cannot merely stand there and spout off inane theories for all of eternity until you happen to get the correct answer.
Remiel: Besides...
Remiel: With things as they stand, even someone as thick as you shouldn’t require significantly more time.
Remiel: If you believe that this is all fake, and accusing Miss Fey of mass murder is not betraying her...
Remiel: Then by all means, go ahead and do so.
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Mathias_Trueman » Mer Mai 16, 2018 12:11 am

Spoiler : :
Hm, Gumshoe will require a bit more work then.

Direct murder and murder mechanisms are both still possibities.

We know that gumshoe was dead the minute Phoenix opened the door to the room, because blood is present on his sprite and death was instantaneous. I find it unlikely (for now) that Gumshoe faked his death, only for Edgeworth to finish the job during his examination, so I will assume the murder happened before the door was opened. One possibility lies in the order of leaving the room; It is emphasized, and Phoenix declares he was the last to leave the room in red, but nowhere does it garuntee that no one entered the room since Phoenix had left it. Currently, the murderer role for Gumshoe is still generic, as they could have killed him by slipping away unnoticed... but given how you've dismissed my earlier solution, I doubt this will stand for long.

Mechanisms are possible, but I'd rather not dive into that rabbithole if I don't have to.

As for the adhesive solution, there are still ways for Larry to escape his position.

1. Lisa did come back with the solution for him, but Larry then took her back to the room and killed her, and then placed the adhesive back on himself in the meantime.

2. In the event that #1 is disproven, a there is a weaker approach that might still hold; Larry was not fully covered in the adhesive, as the red truth says it covered his SHOES, the FLOOR, and LARRY HIMSELF. The coverage on the floor clearly wasn't large enough to prevent Lisa or Edgeworth/Phoenix/Maya from going around it and getting to the solution eiher. I propose that Larry could have placed his jacket on the floor and taken off his shoes, letting him jump/walk over the small adhesive puddle to get to the storage room. He could then kill her, and place himself under the effects of the adhesive again.

However, the first solution brings up two contradictions I'd like to address;

1a. Like said in my previous theory, if Larry was the culprit he could have closed his eyes when walking to/from the hallway himself.

1b. If someone other than Larry entered or exited the hallway, he wouldn't have seen them. He was glued in place in a specific location, and was facing the door to Nanotech. (It's pretty surprising he got all the way there from their struggle by the door, but that distance combined with the context of the struggle serve as evidence that he would not have been facing the hallway at all.)
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Bad Player » Mer Mai 16, 2018 3:26 am

Spoiler : Mathias :
Remiel: If nothing else, Mr. Wright, you are consistent...
Remiel: After all, this theory is just as pathetic as your first attempt.
Remiel: You cannot simply add words to a red truth that are not there.
Remiel: The red truth is, "I was the last person to leave Robotics."
Remiel: It does not specify anything about the time the group moved from Robotics to Composites.
Remiel: Therefore, it applies to all people, at all times up until it was issued!
Remiel: Consequently, if someone, snuck out of Composites...
Remiel: Went to Robotics, murdered Detective Gumshoe, and returned to Composites...
Remiel: That person would become the last person to have left Robotics, and the red truth would crumble!
Remiel: Fortunately, red truths are impervious, so the thing that crumbles is your theory.
Remiel: As for Ms. Basil's murder...
Remiel: Do not forget that "Everything the detective experiences is the truth, although the detective can be fooled."
Remiel: You witnessed the adhesive get on Larry's shoes and Larry.
Remiel: In other words, Larry was glued into his shoes!
Remiel: So how exactly do you propose he took them off?
Remiel: ...Even if you have an answer to that, I intend to cut down this idea for good.
Remiel: Larry did not move from the spot marked on the map at any point while Phoenix Wright was inside Nanotech.
Remiel: Oh, and by the way...
Larry: Niiiiiiick!
Larry: I was stuck facing the storage hallway, not Nanotech!
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Blackrune » Mer Mai 16, 2018 12:38 pm

Spoiler : :
Maya, you sure you remember this right? You really think you went and stabbed them?

And what if words in red truth mean something different depending on context. The culprit is the one who kills, but... For example, you could "kill" a person...with a really bad joke, or just inside your mind. Ha! I know that was so terrible you're mentally dying inside, but that just proves my point!
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Bad Player » Mer Mai 16, 2018 2:16 pm

Spoiler : Rune :
Maya: Uuu...
Maya: I-I remember it all...
Maya: Looking for an opening to leave Composites and enter Robotics...
Maya: Sneaking up behind Gumshoe and driving the knife into his back...
Maya: Quietly exiting Nanotech and going to Storage...
Maya: Taking Lisa by surprise and slitting her throat...
Maya: Charming Larry into keeping quiet on my way back...
Maya: Waiting for the blackout, so I could knock the three of you out...
Maya: And then...
Maya: A-And then...
Maya: *sob*
Remiel: ...
Remiel: Keep in mind, Mr. Wright...
Remiel: "The culprit is the one who kills."
Remiel: Therefore, as soon as your theory involves Miss Fey "killing" at all...
Remiel: Even in a metaphorical sense...
Remiel: She must become the culprit.
Remiel: And since there can only be one culprit...
Remiel: She must then also be the culprit who literally killed everyone!
Remiel: You cannot squirm out of the truth before you that easily.
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Blackrune » Ven Mai 18, 2018 10:45 pm

Spoiler : :
How to get out of this... the culprit is the one who kills. This includes any form of killing. Maya did say "I killed everyone"...or...
...
No, it was really Maya that said that, I suppose. But her memories make no sense... she couldn't have quietly exited Nanotech. Are they fake then? If she's a robot I suppose that's possible to arrange... maybe she was also programmed to say those red truths then, but that doesn't get around the fact they need to be true. It couldn't have been a recording she played because that wouldn't really tell me who did it instead, and...

There's also the other thing: Accusing somebody else would require them to be a robot, too. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to leave the crime scenes... at this point it's obvious enough that the only way to get out of there is to somehow cheat those red truths. Another robot would mean we have to substract another person... and would need to add another one to keep it at five. We don't have such a person though. (cooould try BP but... accusing the gamemaster probably won't work out all that well. And I wouldn't know who between those two would have done it. Given that I only get one chance here, that wouldn't seem appropiate...)

...

Just what were you doing there anyway, Remiel?
And... I can't help but notice you never stated your name in red. Wouldn't you want to at least let me know who it is that will supposedly defeat me?
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Bad Player » Ven Mai 18, 2018 11:09 pm

Spoiler : Rune :
Remiel: ...
Remiel: First, by “there,” I assume you mean the facility.
Remiel: But I am not sure why you believe I was present.
Remiel: Second, I am not here to issue red truths on your command.
Remiel: Especially when you are supposed to be providing your final answer!
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Blackrune » Mar Mai 22, 2018 7:53 am

Spoiler : :
It was Remiel obv.
Just had to hide and kill Gumshoe, who stuck around to steal some instant noodles. Then the killer left the room.

After he left he slipped into the storage room and killed Lisa when she got there. Then he left again and just went past Larry like it's no big deal and I guess Larry was too idiotic to notice.

Afterwards he just killed the rest with a convenient blackout.

But wait, there have to be only five people. Well, guess Maya was just a robot. Her robotness is noted in red.
The metal detector simply never went off because she never left the room except together with us.

But how, you may ask, is any of this possible? Aren't there three red truths that mean only a robot could have done it?
Two of them have the word "person" in them, which sure is suggesting as much! The last one is spoken by Maya, a robot, which sure makes it seem like she is the killer!

That's not what's going on here. All three of these problematic reds have another word in common. And they actually state the exact person who did it, plain as day.

The culprit is the person with one of the most unfortunate names in the universe. The culprit is the individual called I.
And just as was stated plain and simple...

I killed everyone.

this seems like a good one to go out on at least.
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Bad Player » Mar Mai 22, 2018 2:06 pm

Spoiler : Rune :
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Mathias_Trueman » Mer Juin 06, 2018 11:26 pm

Spoiler : Clarification :
I would like to inquire about the metal detectors at the front of nanotech.

When the group first attempted to enter nanotech, the resulting chaos with larry winded up with Larry and the guide out in the hallway by the intersection. Yet, the characters acted as if Larry hadnt wandered so far off during his struggle.

Assumption: You can be outside of the metal detector (either inside nanotech or out in the hallway) or inside the metal detector. (Otherwise, Larry would have first passed through the metal detector to trigger it and then again when he went to the hallway, and should have triggerred the alarm twice.)

So the events would unfold something like this;

1. Larry, Phoenix, Maya and Edgeworth all entered the metal detector at the same time. (hallway -> inside detector)
2. Phoenix Maya and Edgeworth all finish passing into Nanotech (inside detector-> nanotech)
3. Larry backs out of the detector, and becomes glued in place (inside detector -> hallway)
<time passes with other possible entrances and exits>
4. Phoenix, Maya and Edgeworth go from Nanotech to inside the detector (nanotech -> inside detector)
5. The alarm is set off, and Edgeworth reveals he has a Steel Samurai figurine. He backs out and places the figurine down. (inside detector -> nanotech)
6. Phoenix and Maya leave the metal detector. (inside detector -> hallway)
7. Edgeworth then re enters the detector and enters the hallway without sounding the alarm again (nanotech -> inside detector -> hallway)

I'm still thinking about how to proceed from that last batch of red truth. It seems like the bluecorp gadgets will play a roll in the solution somehow, so I'm going to guess that the culprit knew of the bluecorp gadgets before the tour began. and there was some degree of premeditation prior to the tour leading up to these murders
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Bad Player » Jeu Juin 07, 2018 3:12 am

Spoiler : Mathias :
Remiel: I am not going to respond to stray assertions.
Remiel: Theories, Mr. Wright. Theories.
Remiel: However, I do not mind providing clarification...
Remiel: Entries 1 through 4 in your timeline are correct.
Remiel: Entries 5 through 7, however...
Remiel: You, Ms. Fey, and Mr. Edgeworth all simply passed through the metal detector.
Remiel: Mr. Edgeworth revealed the figurine after passing through.
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Mathias_Trueman » Ven Juin 08, 2018 10:57 pm

Spoiler : Theory :
From the top, lets see... (assuming nanomachines arent the answer to everything)

Phoenix is not the culprit, since he is the detective.

Gumshoe is not the culprit, because any planned murder traps of his wouldnt have been able to predict Larry's accident.

Basil is not the culprit, because she couldnt have killed any of the main group after her death.

Edgeworth is the culprit.

Gumshoe was convinced by Edgeworth to play dead in order to showcase the capabilities of MINERVA to the group. Edgeworth then killed him for real when he examined the body.

During the group's stay at Nanotech, edgeworth snuck away and went to Thermo, purposefully setting the power intake of the machines there such that it would cause a blackout later. He "stole" the steel samurai figurine to make it seem less likely that he had left nanotech prior to that moment.

I'll address Basil's death last.

When the blackout finally occured, edgeworth knocked out everyone. He then went back to Robotics and retrieved the knife, killing Larry, doing something to Maya and knocking out Phoenix. He then killed himself.

As for Basil... I am pretty stumped on that part.

Considering how strongly Larrys testimony was defended by you earlier, it seems likely that any mediocre claims would get thrown out by saying "well if Larry knew he had a hole in his testimony, he wouldnt have phrased it that way." so claims such as "larry was knocked out", "there was a temporary blackout only in the hallway", or "larry was distracted by something while moving to and from the room" are shot. If Minerva didnt count as human, larry would have likely incorrectly assumed Minerva was a person or ghost and made mention of it... Hm.

Lets try this then.

There is a device X that uses the super glue to enable wall climbing or ceiling climbing. By placing it over both hands, the weilder can press down on a surface to eject glue and stick the device, and press a button to release the solvent and release the device from the surface.

Larry did not have the ceiling of the hallway in his field of vision, and thus using a device such as X edgeworth could have climbed the ceiling to get in and out without larry noticing.
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Bad Player » Sam Juin 09, 2018 6:25 am

Spoiler : Mathias :
Larry: Niiiiick!
Larry: The ceiling wasn't so high up that I couldn't see it!
Larry: Yeah, maybe people normally don't pay that much attention to the ceiling...
Larry: But I'd notice if there was a GUY up there!
Larry: Besides, all that sticking and unsticking of the glue would make noise, wouldn't it?
Larry: If I heard something, I'd reflexively glance at it, at least...
Larry: There was nothing else going on in the hallway, after all.
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Mathias_Trueman » Lun Juin 11, 2018 11:26 pm

Spoiler : Bandaid :
Larry, if you're certain that you didnt look away from that hallway for a second, then it seems Basil must have died to a trap then.

I will propose that this trap was laid out during the time between leaving Robotics and the discovery of Gumshoe's body, and again the culprit is Edgeworth.

The trap is based on the door and the glue. There is a mechanism that fires the knife horizontally at a normal human's height. While the door was half-open, Edgeworth made it so if the door was fully open and then shut afterwards the machine would fire a knife. Phoenix and Maya did not notice because when they entered the room they were focused on Basil's body, giving Edgeworth some time to make the mechanism hidden or not obvious. Having gotten the solvent, he lead them out and could have further distracted them from any trace of the trap.
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Re: [M] Endless Nights - Daybreak 

Message par Bad Player » Mar Juin 12, 2018 12:20 am

Spoiler : Mathias :
Remiel: Heh heh heh...
Remiel: Too naive, Mr. Wright.
Remiel: The culprit was in the same room as Lisa at the moment of Lisa’s death.
Remiel: There are no cowardly traps within my solution.
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