To begin, we can try a more literal approach:Evolina deLuna wrote:Spoiler : :Vera: Mr. van Chandler... Why did you have to die?
???: ...An excellent question.
???: W-What?
Joseph (?): ...
???: I-Impossible!
Joseph (?): Long time no see.
How have you been?
???: Y-You!
How can you possibly still be alive?
Joseph (?): A major oversight.
You should have examined that corpse when you got the chance.
???: ...
???: I see what’s going on here.
So that has happened.
???: In that case, you can no longer harm me. Give up.
Joseph (?): You think I’m out of cards?
Maybe you should just stick to chess.
Joseph (?): From my experiences chess players are quite appropiate company for you.
???: What are you trying to do?
You’ve lost.
Joseph (?): A shame, really...
Suppose I can’t fool the raven.
Joseph (?): I don’t give a damn!
Screw your games.
Screw your mystery.
Joseph (?): Maybe I can’t get to you anymore... whatever...
Joseph (?): I can still mess up your final little plan and piss you off as much as possible. I’ll take what I
can get.
???: Y-You... think logically!
There’s nothing you can do.
Joseph (?): Ah, don’t forget my final trump card.
Joseph (?): Psychologically speaking, chances are not bad our favorite murderer won’t survive the
Night.
???: There’s no way you’d go that far! You’re not exactly better if you do that!
Joseph (?): ...do you seriously think I CARE at this point? Remember what you did?
Joseph (?): As long as we‘re going insane we may as well go the whole way.
Joseph (?): A mere shred of sanity is of no value!
???: You’ve lost it.
Pathetic.
Joseph (?): I’ll get you. For a final wish, I’d want you to be able to hear my laughter from hell.
Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.
???: ...I don’t think so.
Joseph (?):
???: You are bound by the laws of purity. Even now, you cannot go against your oath.
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Joseph (?): What kind of joke is this?
I don’t give a damn about your ‘perfect’ mystery anymore.
Joseph (?): It’s already stained. The rules have been violated.
Joseph (?): Why should I adhere to rules you have already broken?
???: ...What?
Joseph (?): ...I get it. We both have no clue what went wrong. Perfect.
Joseph (?): Don’t feign too much ignorance though. I know you’re cheating your way around the
board too.
Joseph (?): With that out of the way, let’s have a chat about the matter at hand, shall we?
Joseph (?): There’s something that I simply HAVE to adress here...
???: ...Checkmate.
Joseph (?): ...What now?
Joseph (?):
???: Even if you’re not bound by the oath, you’re still bound by THEIR restrictions.
Joseph (?): ...This is how it works, huh? This resctriction doesn’t even make sense for them.
???: It does. They don’t actually want to let you go, after all.
Joseph (?): ...Right. Give up on the truth for the sake of a higher truth, or something?
???: There’s nothing left you can do. Just leave.
Joseph (?): Oh dear.
Is that it?
Joseph (?): I suppose it means more work for my trump card. Let’s start with that then.
???: It’s people like you that are hard to understand. Why don’t you give up when there’s clearly no
hope?
Joseph (?): ...You still have a lot to learn about human logic, my beloved friend.
Joseph (?): Well then, my dear trump card. Shall we begin?
Joseph (?): Sadly I am forbidden from telling you any tales of relevance.
Joseph (?): However, I will still attempt to guide you... by asking the right questions.
Joseph (?): You have done well. Better than me. It wasn’t wrong to entrust this to you.
Joseph (?): Will you be able to exact revenge in my stead? I suppose that’s what I’m hoping for the
most.
Joseph (?): Don’t worry too much about getting these questions right at this point.
Joseph (?): See them as guidelines for your reasoning. Find the right answers for this corrupted
mystery.
Joseph (?): Use whatever method of reasoning you deem appropiate. I’m sure you can reach the... a
truth.
Joseph (?): Question one:
Am I really Joseph F. X. van Chandler?
Joseph (?): Is Joseph F. X. van Chandler dead or alive?
Joseph (?): So far so good...
???: You do realize you’re playing right into our hands with this?
Joseph (?): That depends on the climax of the show, wouldn’t you agree? We still have a lot of time.
Joseph (?): What about the crime scene?
What actually happened to him there?
If you pick murder: {Joseph (?): In that case, why wasn’t it Mr. Ost who was murdered?
Joseph (?): Is the locked room trick you came up with actually what the murderer used?
Joseph (?): Heh... can you actually disprove it?}
If you pick suicide: {Joseph (?): Can you think of a reason why he might have committed suicide?
Joseph (?): Aside from the psychological take, is there any evidence suggesting suicide?}
If you pick fake death: Joseph (?): Can you think of any reason for him to fake his death?
If you pick accident: Joseph (?): Has there been anything suggesting an accident?
Joseph (?): Keep thinking.
Joseph (?): Mr. Leid is suspected due to circumstantial evidence. A horrible approach to crimes.
Joseph (?): What do you think?
Did he actually try to fake his death?
Joseph (?): Then what happened?
???: You’re just being desperate.
Joseph (?): Is there a murderer in this building?
If you pick no: Joseph (?): Maybe there’s a relevant murderer outside this building though?
Joseph (?): Very well.
Who is it?
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): That will have to do for now.
???: It was entertaining, watching this fool’s struggle.
Joseph (?): I’ve merely set some more gears into motion.
Joseph (?): My revenge will be executed exactly as scheduled.
???: You know it won’t happen.
Joseph (?): Soon, you will turn from the hunter into the hunted.
Joseph (?): It might be even more appropiate than a direct death. A little burning before the end.
Joseph (?): This is the end for you...
Joseph (?): There is no future for you...
Joseph (?): ...Nevermore.
What I noticed is that he implied she was Raven and that he wants to take revenge on her. If that really is Joseph. It could be him, or someone dressing up as him, or Vera's imagination, or perhaps they're communicating via the Judgement Seekers' objects' telepathy. I doubt these were explained in the beginning for no reason. Could he actually have been stabbed with the dagger instead of an arrow...?
Anyway there are many things hidden in this scene.
Spoiler : :
Well, I doubt that Joseph is actually talking to Vera here. This scene is a lot more muddled than the other scenes that took place from Raven's perspective- primarily because of the Vera dialogue right before it. It's that and Joseph seeming to reply to that statement that creates the issue. But the way that we shift from "Vera" to "???" does indeed make it seem like we're now channeling the thoughts of Raven. And like in the previous scenes where Raven monologues, Vera is simply absent, and is viewing this whole scene from within Raven's POV/head.
Judgment Seekers' telepathy is an excellent idea. However, regarding the dagger, I'm not sure how it would have gotten to the mansion, unfortunately; Vera, after all, stated that she got rid of it in Britain. Unless we think she's lying to Chandler there... but why would she? And if she did, who could have picked it up and used it? As for it being the murder weapon: it's possible I suppose, but I'm skeptical. Even in darkness, it feels like there's a big difference between a dagger- even if it was an extremely thin one- and crossbow bolt; Lira or Vera or somebody else would have noticed that something was off.
And without the dagger, Chandler's... interesting appearance doesn't seem to make sense. If it were just, say, a cloaked figure with pale skin I could handwave it, but with the glowing eyes and such, the scene just... seems to really break reality. Which makes me thinking we probably shouldn't be trying to look at it from the perspective "how did this happen in the narrative", because I'm skeptical that it did.
Honestly, I'm tempted to think that this needs to be approached carefully. From a pure, objective, narrative perspective? It's probably just Vera having a nightmare, perhaps blended together with her weird telepathic link to Raven that may or may not actually be a thing. I don't know that we can take any clues from it looking at it from that angle, though I certainly agree with attempts to try. But I don't doubt that Blackrune has added a good deal of foreshadowing and clues in here, if we look for them.
I'm not going to comment on the 4th wall stuff; I doubt that'll lead us anywhere.
So we have lines like this:
How can you possibly still be alive?
Joseph (?): A major oversight.
You should have examined that corpse when you got the chance.
Now, I can see two meanings to this. I could see a more literal, Blackrune out-and-out hinting at us: "They didn't look at the corpse closely enough guys! Joseph is actually alive!" angle, or I could see a vaguer clue; perhaps relating to who actually saw the body and who didn't? It is worth noting that Valerie just kind of disappears the moment they discover the corpse. Aside from that, the people that really took a look at the body: Zachary, Vera, Lira, William, Than. Under this second interpretation, somebody aside from them would be Raven. I prefer the first though- it's simpler.
Joseph (?): You think I’m out of cards?
Maybe you should just stick to chess.
Joseph (?): From my experiences chess players are quite appropiate company for you.
This line I find especially interesting because... it's so random. It doesn't really seem to MEAN much of anything, except maybe a comparison to Raven as a chessmaster. If we're plumbing for additional meaning... the combination of a gambling metaphor and chess could be a reference to Valerie; but not saying that Raven is Valerie DIRECTLY. If anything, it seems to be suggesting a close connection to Valerie- which would actually kind of point to Ost.
Valerie and Ost have kind of an interesting relationship, in that Valerie merely says that they got "...acquianted in some way", and reacts violently should you present Ost's profile. Yet, they MUST be on speaking terms to some degree or... why would he invite her at all? Ost also dodges the question when more or less asked why he invited Valerie. So this could be pointing towards that connection; if not saying that Ost is Raven, then saying that there is more there. This may be me reading a bit too much into it, though.
.
Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.
???: ...I don’t think so.
Joseph (?):
???: You are bound by the laws of purity. Even now, you cannot go against your oath.
...
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Joseph (?): What kind of joke is this?
I don’t give a damn about your ‘perfect’ mystery anymore.
Joseph (?): It’s already stained. The rules have been violated.
To me, this seems less like it's talking about some kind of general oath, and more a specific agreement regarding this particular "perfect mystery". That, in essence, there was an agreement between Joseph and Raven about this mystery and his role in it... except something went wrong along the way, which has caused Joseph to turn on said agreement. Which would imply that Joseph was complicit in... whatever this is at first, but is now actively acting against it.
???: Even if you’re not bound by the oath, you’re still bound by THEIR restrictions.
Joseph (?): ...This is how it works, huh? This resctriction doesn’t even make sense for them.
???: It does. They don’t actually want to let you go, after all.
Joseph (?): ...Right. Give up on the truth for the sake of a higher truth, or something?
???: There’s nothing left you can do. Just leave.
... I really don't get this part; probably because I don't get the context. There's some other party, whose restrictions prohibit Joseph from doing certain things- perhaps from a more literal perspective, from telling everybody/Vera what's going on? Or perhaps this has some connection to the Justice Seekers? That seems to be what Joseph is alluding to in that final line.
So... I must admit, I can't find anything particularly definitive in here, from a less literal perspective. There was probably an agreement between Joseph and Raven related to this "perfect mystery", and because some rule got broken or something went wrong, now everything is chaotic and Joseph is starting to run interference on Raven's plans, or at least attempting to. That's more what I gathered from it.
Of course, perhaps you are supposed to read it more literally. Or perhaps it's all just noise. And even if this sort of reading is accurate, I'm sure there's a couple important passages I'm just not catching, because I'm looking at them from the wrong angle. It's annoying with passages like these, because it can be crazy hard to tell what exactly the writer wants you to pick up from it.
Judgment Seekers' telepathy is an excellent idea. However, regarding the dagger, I'm not sure how it would have gotten to the mansion, unfortunately; Vera, after all, stated that she got rid of it in Britain. Unless we think she's lying to Chandler there... but why would she? And if she did, who could have picked it up and used it? As for it being the murder weapon: it's possible I suppose, but I'm skeptical. Even in darkness, it feels like there's a big difference between a dagger- even if it was an extremely thin one- and crossbow bolt; Lira or Vera or somebody else would have noticed that something was off.
And without the dagger, Chandler's... interesting appearance doesn't seem to make sense. If it were just, say, a cloaked figure with pale skin I could handwave it, but with the glowing eyes and such, the scene just... seems to really break reality. Which makes me thinking we probably shouldn't be trying to look at it from the perspective "how did this happen in the narrative", because I'm skeptical that it did.
Honestly, I'm tempted to think that this needs to be approached carefully. From a pure, objective, narrative perspective? It's probably just Vera having a nightmare, perhaps blended together with her weird telepathic link to Raven that may or may not actually be a thing. I don't know that we can take any clues from it looking at it from that angle, though I certainly agree with attempts to try. But I don't doubt that Blackrune has added a good deal of foreshadowing and clues in here, if we look for them.
I'm not going to comment on the 4th wall stuff; I doubt that'll lead us anywhere.
So we have lines like this:
How can you possibly still be alive?
Joseph (?): A major oversight.
You should have examined that corpse when you got the chance.
Now, I can see two meanings to this. I could see a more literal, Blackrune out-and-out hinting at us: "They didn't look at the corpse closely enough guys! Joseph is actually alive!" angle, or I could see a vaguer clue; perhaps relating to who actually saw the body and who didn't? It is worth noting that Valerie just kind of disappears the moment they discover the corpse. Aside from that, the people that really took a look at the body: Zachary, Vera, Lira, William, Than. Under this second interpretation, somebody aside from them would be Raven. I prefer the first though- it's simpler.
Joseph (?): You think I’m out of cards?
Maybe you should just stick to chess.
Joseph (?): From my experiences chess players are quite appropiate company for you.
This line I find especially interesting because... it's so random. It doesn't really seem to MEAN much of anything, except maybe a comparison to Raven as a chessmaster. If we're plumbing for additional meaning... the combination of a gambling metaphor and chess could be a reference to Valerie; but not saying that Raven is Valerie DIRECTLY. If anything, it seems to be suggesting a close connection to Valerie- which would actually kind of point to Ost.
Valerie and Ost have kind of an interesting relationship, in that Valerie merely says that they got "...acquianted in some way", and reacts violently should you present Ost's profile. Yet, they MUST be on speaking terms to some degree or... why would he invite her at all? Ost also dodges the question when more or less asked why he invited Valerie. So this could be pointing towards that connection; if not saying that Ost is Raven, then saying that there is more there. This may be me reading a bit too much into it, though.
.
Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.
???: ...I don’t think so.
Joseph (?):
???: You are bound by the laws of purity. Even now, you cannot go against your oath.
...
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Joseph (?): What kind of joke is this?
I don’t give a damn about your ‘perfect’ mystery anymore.
Joseph (?): It’s already stained. The rules have been violated.
To me, this seems less like it's talking about some kind of general oath, and more a specific agreement regarding this particular "perfect mystery". That, in essence, there was an agreement between Joseph and Raven about this mystery and his role in it... except something went wrong along the way, which has caused Joseph to turn on said agreement. Which would imply that Joseph was complicit in... whatever this is at first, but is now actively acting against it.
???: Even if you’re not bound by the oath, you’re still bound by THEIR restrictions.
Joseph (?): ...This is how it works, huh? This resctriction doesn’t even make sense for them.
???: It does. They don’t actually want to let you go, after all.
Joseph (?): ...Right. Give up on the truth for the sake of a higher truth, or something?
???: There’s nothing left you can do. Just leave.
... I really don't get this part; probably because I don't get the context. There's some other party, whose restrictions prohibit Joseph from doing certain things- perhaps from a more literal perspective, from telling everybody/Vera what's going on? Or perhaps this has some connection to the Justice Seekers? That seems to be what Joseph is alluding to in that final line.
So... I must admit, I can't find anything particularly definitive in here, from a less literal perspective. There was probably an agreement between Joseph and Raven related to this "perfect mystery", and because some rule got broken or something went wrong, now everything is chaotic and Joseph is starting to run interference on Raven's plans, or at least attempting to. That's more what I gathered from it.
Of course, perhaps you are supposed to read it more literally. Or perhaps it's all just noise. And even if this sort of reading is accurate, I'm sure there's a couple important passages I'm just not catching, because I'm looking at them from the wrong angle. It's annoying with passages like these, because it can be crazy hard to tell what exactly the writer wants you to pick up from it.