[T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout ○

[kwando1313]

Spoiler : :

The biggest question though is... How do we know that Lira isn't in on this?

[Lind]

You released it?

RUNE IS USING MY SPRITES YAEY Then again who isn't in this comp?

Spoiler : SoCk :

Kind of a long intro for something with no graphics but bleah.

Oh hey, Vera Night.

This taxi driver is going to do something isn't he. EVERY CASE IN THIS COMP MUST HAVE A SHERLOCK HOMAGE.

Jazzy.

Franzy, eh? 10 quid says she'll be Hazama'd again.

EXXER! DAMN YOU RUNE! DAMN YOU AND YOUR OBSESSION WITH RECURRING CHARACTERS!

was that the pokemon PC noise


"No more when I'm talking to Joseph F. X. van Chandler, for his replies are beyond comprehension." SUBTLE NAMEDROP

"Can't hurt to keep it on me." Yes it can you idiot guns are dangerous

Ohey, Lira.

Oh damn, James Richter is deads.

OK, this setup is getting kind of overbearing now.

Maria? Well, that raises chronology questions. I think. Honestly Runeverse is so convoluted I can't even

NEVERMOREBLARGHWHAWHYDAMNITRUNE

Mr. Van Chandler Bing?

Is... is that a Katawa Shoujo background? It looks an awful lot like the train station from the Lilly route.

Oh hey, actual gameplay.

Hehehe duplicate backgrounds.

VELIND

"He may not be alive for much longer." DON'T KILL OFF VELIND WWHY

oh my god what is with all the russian in this comp

But... but... that means the Butler couldn't have done it!

Oh crap we doubled up on Caleb

Hah, everyone's using Lennis except me. And possibly TwiGav, who hasn't released his. And DwaMPing which I refuse to play. I forget why, I think it was because of GK2 stuff or something. Basically both you and ZeelKK.

"Cretarie". Wow, you are the master of name puns. Also I think this is the first time I've seen anyone use Zach in a trial.

Tiefenholycrap

Good god how many characters do you have

Jegus funking christ even more characters

ORIGINAL DESIGNS

Hahaha, Knox's 5th cracked me up.

Oh god it's Luna

Screw the rules, I have huge hair!

GAMEPLAAAAAAAY

I like how you've set this up.

I'm liking this Liwei guy.

Wait. Did Vera ever mention she was a DA?

This guy wouldn't look out of place in a round of TF2.

I'm liking Eral too.

Ooh, Tarot readings.

NUDIE PARTS TEEHEE

Yes OK I like scars I include them in a lot of my character designs get off my back jack

Calling it now, Tiefenheim dies.

I like how we both made Caleb insufferable, but in totally different ways.

"Raven's identity is quite obvious". AFGSFBH KBBVHSFAKFEQI9SF

Aaaaaand he's dead.

Or not.

Ost is Raven, isn't he?

"Our president was almost shot last week" Oh yeah, this was mentioned earlier. Do I smell a Convergence?

Guest is totally the victim.

LOCKED RUNE

"An Ace Attorney fangame"... Uh, it is? I couldn't see the faintest trace of Ace Attorney in this.

Will do part 2 later.

[DWaM]

Welp kids, are you ready for another episode of...

Spoiler : :

DWaM's Crack Theorizing

Considering that some people would like a discussion from this, I'll try to keep this in a form of one, I suppose.
I won't focus on the first murder just yet. The second "murder", or, rather, the logistics behind it are much more interesting to me. It's a question that was posed at the end of investigation - Did Leid really intend to fake his death? Let's assume that the answer is "no", first. That would mean that the culprit (or culprits) would be aiming to intentionally make his death fake. The logical answer would be that they simply wanted to frame him for the entire thing under the pretense that the culprit would fake his death at one point. ...But the issue is, that doesn't really make any sense. Firstly because if the culprit, say, wanted to kill again, this entire scenario would be a waste of his time, now that Leid's under supervision. Of course, there's a possibility that he was poisoned and the second kill's already practically been secured; but let's keep it simple, for now. One might argue that that was the culprit's goal from the get-go; doing it for absolutely no reason just to throw ideas around. But for something as... specific and direct as this, it seems pointless. At least right now. Another problem that arises from this is the fact that they were never even going to check the body. Had they just left it alone, Leid (assuming he's innocent and someone else really did knock him out and set up the scene) would've woken up by normal and possibly had a chance to explain his situation (assuming his amnesia was still intact... But I'll get to that later), making this even more pointless. A culprit's plan should be devised from the get-go. Meaning that either the culprit had the intention of revealing that Leid wasn't dead at all (making the laughing detective the prime suspect) or wanted to leave him alone. But for what reason?

A possibility comes to mind - had Leid woken up "as planned" while nobody was around, and assuming that at some point the culprit had suggested to lock the room (for... whatever reason), Leid's only viable means of escape would be through the window, no? Out of all the possible ways out, the most probable would've been the window that was wide open, no? So isn't it possible that the scene was intentionally set up so that when Leid woke up, he would naturally try and jump off through the open window, resorting (somehow, for now) in his death (possibly through the miscalculation in height - as in, the mansion's on a higher ground than anticipated, so he would just fall to his death... OR the culprit wanted him to stick his head out that window so they can shoot him or something).

Regardless, there are a few of things that support the idea that Leid wasn't aiming to fake his death. The voices heard of a seeming argument. The easy explanation would be that he faked it, but the way it's set up... It's actually more interesting that three people heard something, and three people didn't... What was it, a scream, I believe? It seems too convenient that he just faked an argument using two different voices... Then again, it seems too convinent for there to have been one in the first place. ...Or is it? (I continue this on the discussion of the first murder XP)

I already presented a possibility as to how the culprit might've gotten in the room, so I won't be bother with that until I'm explicity proven wrong. (Plus, the existance of rope(s) WAS already mentioned...)

Let's see the second option here - that Leid had decided to fake his death. Why on EARTH would he do that? The culprit would KNOW that he/she didn't kill him. If it was to get away from the culprit, this would be achieving the exact oppopsite. We're apparently dealing with masters of killing - they apparently know everything about everyone in the mansion - they would have a general idea of who would kill who and why. But Leid was alone, at that. Nobody would have a motive for killing him. The culprit would instantly know that he'd faked his death. Of course, assuming that the laughing detective's the culprit, yes, I suppose it would've made sense for him to what he did and point Leid's fake death to his advantage, indirectly getting him out of his way at least for one murder.
Still - I can't see why Leid would want to actively do something that would circumstancially be more damaging to him. 'Faking your death to get away from the culprit trick' is applied when you're dealing with someone who's inexperienced and usually kills out of impulse and revenge to intentionally confuse them. From what we've seen, you shouldn't be able to pull this off with the JP corp and he of all people should know it. Now, of course - this could be an intentional misdirection. Assuming Leid himself really IS the culprit and he just wanted to fake his death for the sake of faking his death, in which case, it wouldn't necessary matter if he was found out or not; I'm sure he would have a back-up plan - actually, assuming that's the case, this could be just a diversion to get him off the suspect list permenately - by causing a murder he couldn't have possibly commited or something like that. The convenient amnesia isn't exactly helping his case.

With all this in mind... Let's take a look at the first murder, yet again.

Let's assume the game's logic of having Leid unsuccessfully faking his death and being the culprit. How could he have possibly done it, even then? All of the guests (actually, correct me if I'm wrong on this, which I may very well be) went practically straight to the dining room, including Leid. How could he have done the pin trick? How could any of them done the pin trick (well, aside from Ost, I suppose)? Or kill Jospeh for in the first place, for that matter? Assuming that there's a part in the story we didn't see where someone just flat-out left the dining room... It's strange.

So, with that in mind, I came up with a theory of what's going on. I'll call it the Joseph+Leid theory.

Essentially, the two are working together. ...Or did so at one point, I'm not sure. It would basically be based around the idea that they would both fake their death at some point for ??? reason of stopping Raven and co., making essentially all locked rooms easily explained... Well, the Joseph one might be a stretch, but it's still on the table. It would explain why it's all happening, but the issue is that in the long run, neither of the two would benefit much from that. We still haven't see Joseph rise up and do something and we've seen how Leid's part of the plan would turn out.

So this doesn't really work. Not to mention it's far too basic, in my opinion.

Now, with that in mind, there could be an alternative explanation for this locked room... The issue being that I still can't get around the alibi problem (assuming there is one, anyway). It's simple (assuming it wasn't covered during the locked room investigation) - the latches on one door were never set until the room was actually broken into. This would allow the culprit to simply leave with the master key, pretend that both doors are fully set in place and just have them broken down. While everyone was busy with examining the body, all it would take are two or three steps to pull the latch into place. It's basic, but it could work, I'd say. At least it seems less complicated to me than the pin trick.

Now let's discuss the logistics behind killing Joseph in the first place. The idea brought up in the game is that he was actually killed for no reason at all and that the culprit did it for the sake of lulz, but that seems kind of a stretch to me. The culprit must've known that he would be there and he must've intentionally misled him (assuming Joseph himself is innocent, of course) to getting there under the pretense that JP would be there. Still... The issue remains of why kill him in the first place... There is a chance it was a direct psychological way of getting to Vera and damaging her... But then again, there's a chance that this isn't Vera at all. It could be just be an impostor living a lie to a point that they're convinced that they're Vera. Hell, maybe it's Vera's mom that somehow magically survived her murder. Then there's a chance that Lira's in all of this or that KE replaced her or something, making up that story about her mom being killed. Who knows?

Finally, there's the issue of Vera having a gun. It's going to be important, clearly, and it's kind of a sign to me that Joseph might've just planned all of this... The final result being to force Vera to commit murder... Assuming she hasn't already. Hell, the alibi problem doesn't apply to her. She left the room unsupervised. She's the one constantly feeling guilt. She's the one with the apparent split personality stuff that's apparently overtaking her. Everything, from a narrative standpoint to the execution of the crime is possible, out of all people, to her. The killer is her, and yet she doesn't want to be the killer.

The thing about this is that essentially EVERYTHING is clear to you and yet NOTHING is clear to you as to 'who', especially with these many suspects - essentially ALL in place to pull off something like this - perhaps not all for the second murder, admittedly, if not with a help of an accomplice (though, that would be pushing it).

[NihilisticNinja]

Hey, speaking of random crazy speculation!

Spoiler : :

You guys don't KNOW how tempted I am to go for "Crazy Vera Night Split-Personality Raven Theory". As long as Chandler is faking his death (and I really like Enthalpy's hypothesis at the moment), Vera has no alibi for the first case or anything. And then we have Vera mysteriously blacking out the entire time that Leid's fake-death occurred. And... well... I could present approximately half of Vera's internal monologue and around 30-35% of the flavor text as evidence. It doesn't help that my gut has been screaming at me that Vera is Raven since the end of Episode 2.

But Vera being the culprit honestly seems like the answer Blackrune is pushing me towards, and I went through that for 30 pages with Courage. Not happening again.

And I don't want to have to rely on my memory to respond to DWaM's speculation, so that'll be another time.

Spoiler : :

The biggest question though is... How do we know that Lira isn't in on this?

No, the biggest question is:

Spoiler : :

What if LUNA is in on it?

But to be serious, we don't. Why would she be, though? And I don't see any evidence to suggest it unfortunately.

[DeeYo]

Rune,

Spoiler : :

What evidence do I need to present and where if I want to prove that a dry ice crossbow was used?

EDIT: 10/10 only for the "that makes no sense" shout. I seriously love whoever made that.

[DWaM]

Spoiler : About the locked room :

You know, out of curiousity, is there only one possible explanation for the first locked room you can give or are there alternatives?

[DeeYo]

Spoiler : About the locked room :

You know, out of curiousity, is there only one possible explanation for the first locked room you can give or are there alternatives?

Spoiler : :

1. Dry ice crossbow
2. Remote controlled robot that bolts the doors/latches the windows then flushes itself down the sink
3. Remote controlled robot that bolts the doors/latches the windows and looks like a cabinet/anything in the room
4. SUICIDE (goddamit rune why didn't you give me that option)
5. A pressure plate was placed on thr bed, so when Chandler lied on it, a bolt would fall down from the ceiling
6. The whole scene is just a picture painted on a wall and no murder happened (a lá Road Runner)
7. Lira is Raven and gives out false information on everything
8. Murderer used adhesive to lock the door in place, so we think the door was bolted
8. addendum: Murderer is Furudo Erika, she duct taped the doors.
9. Fake wall
10. The whole thing is a dream
11. Unknown Large Object was a block of dry ice that was used to block the door. It evaporated just before Leid broke it down

[Evo]

Spoiler : Random theorizing :

So, it seems like the main theories so far are:
1. Vera's split personality is the killer
2. There is no killer because Joseph faked his death
3. Leid is the killer and intentionally faked his death
4. Someone else is the killer

Let me go through these ...

1. That sounds like a very interesting interpretation of all her crazy dialogue. She would be blaming herself for it if she was the one who did it, of course, and her "being asleep" during the second "murder" is just too convenient. Also, it would be a nice way to break the detective novel rules. And I'm thinking Vera could be Raven. She could have called herself that because of the Raven emblem she got from Leid. Also, Vera is almost an anagram for Raven. Though she seems a bit too young to have something to do with the past cases. Also, it doesn't really seem to me like she has a split personality. These arguments about whether or not it was her fault he died didn't sound all too crazy. The only part really suggesting she's not all too sane was the last scene, but there may be a different explanation on this. She could be dreaming, or someone drugged her, or someone is really dressing up as chandler here.

2. The blood and darkness in the room suggest that, also, wouldn't it be hard to stab someone with an arrow? Chandler could have planned some things that seemed like coincidences, like himself being there. He could also have really been talking to Vera in the last scene for some crazy reason. Also, they never checked his pulse. It would be a nice way to break the detective novel rules if there's no murder at all. Though the big question here is: Why? Why would he fake two deaths? The darkness in the room could also have been there to hide something else, and as for the blood, we don't have an autopsy report, so perhaps he was stabbed multiple times. Speaking of autopsy reports: I'm sure the police will check whether he is really dead when they arrive. Unless the body magically disappears from the crime scene. In that case, the theory would suddenly seem much more likely. Well, we'll see about that in the next part.

3. That seems like the most likely and obvious solution. Too obvious, I'd say, as the investigators have already theorized that in the case. He'll likely be the defendant accused of doing exactly that, and when has an obviously (to the investigators, not the player) guilty defendant ever been really guilty? Sure, it would also be a way to break the detective novel rules, but unlike the other ones, I'd find that to be a lame way to break them, because it would be too easy.

4. At the moment I'm preferring the theory that someone killed Chandler and then faked Leid's death as part of his plan, perhaps to frame him. But i don't really know who. Out of the many guests, only a few seem to stand out in terms of clues against them enough:
- William Ost, as he could have set much of this up by being the host, also, he could have intentionally given Chandler a fake clue about him being JP's target, and possibly have invited Chandler to the party too.
- Zachary Zurich, being the one who suggested to check Leid's pulse.
- Tiefenheim, for obvious reasons. Too obvious, though, but he could have been an accomplice.
I also have one other suspect who was not at the party, and that's Philo Vainheim. In the intro, the killer said things that sounded very much like something Lira would say, but I don't think a little girl is the killer, however, her father likely sounds like that too, talking about detective novel rules and so on. Also, he's old enough to be Raven and be responsible for the past crimes mentioned by Lira. He could have killed his wife too - doesn't it sound suspicious that he knew too much about JP, but they killed his wife instead of him? Also, giving his invitation to Lira could have been a part of his plan, and someone from outside has no alibi for Chandler's murder, unlike most of the others.

By the way, I think the solution Lira gave for Chandler's mruder isn't correct at all, and we'll have to come up with a different, much more complex one in the trial.

[Blackrune]

Spoiler : About the locked room :

You know, out of curiousity, is there only one possible explanation for the first locked room you can give or are there alternatives?

Spoiler : :

Gampelay-wise, only one explanation lets you actually proceed.

(will respond to Lind later. Rest is theories. Gotta keep my mouth shut.)

[DeeYo]

Spoiler : About the locked room :

You know, out of curiousity, is there only one possible explanation for the first locked room you can give or are there alternatives?

Spoiler : :

Gampelay-wise, only one explanation lets you actually proceed.

Spoiler : :

This case would be better if you had a troll theory for every piece of evidence, ranging from the heater making the door bolt expand; to the mirror blocking the door, and when Leid bashes it open, it flies into the sink.
I should have streamed this... 56 minutes of pure troll theories that don't work.

[Bad Player]

btw rune how many parts is it going to be?

[enigma]

Spoiler : Enigma Reviews: ~Burial of a Turnabout~ :

Overall Impression
Yeah, I'm doing this all topsy turvy! Why? Because I'm new, I'm fresh, I'm pandering to peoples desires, I'm desperately lonely and live in a cardboard box and every day I have to stop dogs urinating on my house and why must everyone hate me and...

Whoah. Got a little of track there. Silly me. Ahaha... Oh my god what did I write. Let me... Let me start over.

So, to be different I'm going to cut straight to the chase and tell you what I think of the game. It was fun. The end.

Well, actually it was more than fun. It was pretty damn downright enjoyable. Why? Because, unlike a lot of games on the site, it really pandered to the little person in me who wanted to mess with things and experiment. And, boy, did I want to experiment when I discovered VeraXLuna. (Which you didn't let me do, you asshole. ) But that's a story for another day.

Anyway, I guess what I liked was how it offered so much optional gameplay... But not much when it came to branching out of the VN/Adventure type game. What do I mean by that? Lot's of stuff to do, not much gameplay, basically. And that's exactly what I wanted. I mean, besides the two locked rooms (which frustrated me ever so dearly) it was pretty much your standard VN with a little more things to do or see. Hell, there weren't even any investigation locations, as I remember. And that's the brilliance to me. You've made something that feels very open to exploration without having much that I'm forced to do. On top of that, I liked how it felt less AA and more, hm... Well, Layton or Ghost Trick to me. That's a weird thing to say, but it's true. Maybe it's because I'm off my meds or maybe it's because I never felt like I was doing anything other than solving puzzles when it came to mandatory gameplay.

Another thing that it did well? Characters. But I'll get to that later.

So, overall, what do I think? Truly enjoyable. Looking forward to the next parts.

Plot and Writing
Well, I hate to say it but you're writing at the start needed improvement in my mind. It was a little rushed, at least that's how it came off to me. Prologue, airport, ZOMG, room, random TV, guy, random Greece, taxi. Just kind of snapped scenes in my face and said "THIS IS STORY! THIS IS PREMISE!" And that was... Kind of uncomfortable. But, hey, it got much better once we got to the real plot and story. Now, this is where everything turns great. It's Rune being Rune. In other words, it's exactly what you'd expect of a mystery. A bunch of people in a remote location at a party and one by one they start dying. So, it starts off with And Then There Were None. And I love ATTWN, so that got a big thumbs up from me. Especially when we wheel out the locked rooms. So, really, Rune started going less ATTWN and back to, sigh, Umineko. But, hey, he pulled it off so why complain? And the writing in all of the "after 'PREMISE!!!'" was really good, by the way. It really hit that "mystery" vibe. Where it really was best, though? That last trippy scene. Pretty sure that Vera was taking SOMETHING when I got there. But, I can't help but admit that was my favorite scene. It made no sense but spoke so much about Vera and her psyche. And it was action packed without having anything but a bunch of talking. So, no explosions and I still bet it would entertain Michael Bay fans? Nah, too overused. Americans? Politically incorrect. Hmm... an anarchist. So, besides that start, <good> job.

Music
Give me the OST as a downloadable package. There we go. That's all I have to say. (Well, except Leids "evil" theme. That was just grating on the ears in the "dubstep-y" parts.)

Gameplay
I already talked alot about this before but, there's never such a thing as too much elaboration, right? Especially when it's that "speeecial kind of elaboration~". Anyway, I loved the gameplay here. I don't know if it was a lot or not to program but, well, it certainly felt like a lot. Though, at the same time, it felt like not much at all. And that's the beauty of it. I don't feel overwhelmed with gameplay. Rune basically goes "Oh, hey. You can do some cool stuff here. If you want to. You know, it's cool and all." I don't have to do cross examinations, I don't have to do presents or anything. Well, except for when Runes locked room fetish kicks in. But, even that, wasn't too bad. It was an inventive and fun piece of gameplay even if it was pretty damn difficult. And the thing is, it looked simple. It didn't overwhelm me. And that's actually kind of how I think a lot of games in the future should be. Lots of things to explore, and only minimal forced gameplay. And that's really how games should be. Minimal gameplay, maximum extra stuff to explore and check out. Speaking of which, my favorite gimmick? NUDITY. *Cough* I mean, Tarot cards. Doing that was always fun, and I looked ta them all. There was amazing music and a cool sense of vague foreshadowing that you KNEW was going to make so much sense in the future. Now that, that was a really cool trick. As for the choices? Don't know where you're going with them, but I'm sure they'll lead to something cool. By the way, I went for the no killer and it's all accidents route. I'm thinking that Leid accidentally shot himself somehow, resulting in a non fatal loss of consciousness causing amnesia (or maybe that was when he hit the floor.)
All in all, minimum forced gameplay= maximum greatness.

Characters
Okay, I'm not good at this so I'll give you a summed up version. I loved all the characters. They were all likable in their own special ways. None of them felt real or serious or anything, more like actors in a comedy-drama like Boston Legal. Vaguely realistic but not so much that they can't be wacky and fun. And that's what they were. Eccentric caricatures of possible humans. It reminded me of the very original AA games. All in all, I have no faults with the characters.


Now, I know I've forgotten to bring stuff up or review things but... Well, I'm a very lazy person so this should suffice by now. Please make the next part soon, Rune. Or I'll kill you.

~Enigma

[NihilisticNinja]

And it was action packed without having anything but a bunch of talking. So, no explosions and I still bet it would entertain Michael Bay fans? Nah, too overused. Americans? Politically incorrect. Hmm...

American bashing isn't politically correct anymore? As an American I must admit to being saddened. We're SO MUCH FUN to bash.

[DeeYo]

*bashes NihilisticNinja*

[kwando1313]

Spoiler : @NN :

Well, considering I'm thinking that Philo is Raven... And that Phiko is doing it for her daughter's sake (because dat prologue of this being a burial)