[T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout ○

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Tap
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Tap »

Oh. Almost forgot.
"Nearly approved." :wink:
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Evo »

Answers:
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
The thing about Tief is that he has explicitly said that his obligations don't extend to the point of personally killing anybody. He certainly is happy to assist, should his master require it, but unless his master's life is strictly in danger, supposedly he won't commit murder. I guess we could go "lol he's lying", but... I honestly do believe that Tief is mostly there just to mess with Vera and Lira.
Spoiler : :
What if he considered his master's life to be in danger? But I don't think that's very likely. He still may have something to do with the crime though.
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
The thing about Vera's weird maybe-DID-but-probably-not blackout thing is that the only time we've seen it, Vera was aware of it afterwards. So if that happened here, it's odd that she didn't say anything. Also, nobody when she returned commented on how late/slow she was. So... I doubt a trick with time is being played here.
Spoiler : :
So she must have killed him within only a few minutes then, and also without her normal personality noticing anything, and without knowing where Chandler was. Really unlikely, I'd say.
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
Hm. I see a few problems with Philo: You have- how did he get out of the room, why did he not accept the invitation if he's just going to come anyway, how did he get into the mansion with nobody noticing, etc. Just, to me, it being Philo would kind of be a big cheat, unless there are massive clues coming up that suggest it.

Oh, and what you're thinking of is when Vera asks about Raven and Vampire's identities, Tief goes "Well, EVERYBODY knows who Raven is! I mean, it's the most obvious thing ever! It's Vampire that we're keeping secret." It's worth noting that Raven doesn't necessarily = killer, and that Tief is probably just screwing with Vera's head. I mean, "screwing with Vera's head" is a recurring theme in this game.
Spoiler : :
I agree that someone from outside being the culprit would probably be lame. I think he could be a member of JP, Raven for example, but not the culprit in this case.
When did Tiefenheim say that?
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
Hm. That'd be pretty odd, since according to Vera, he already has a job as a history teacher (I guess she could have been lying to Lira, but I'm not sure why she would). And it makes that whole "the JP took everything from me" aspect make a lot less sense. It's still workable I suppose, but it feels like it's workable in such an abstract way that it kind of becomes meaningless. Or I guess you could say that both his supposed job and his supposed grudge are all an elaborate ruse, but... eh.

That said, we do get a reiteration of limits on Chandler's ability to act in the Vera-Dream-Sequence-Thing at the end, more or less. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is some significance there.
Spoiler : :
Perhaps they took everything from him when he was already a member/servant/whatever of JP. He calls Raven an "old buddy" too ...
So now he wants to take revenge, but due to him having used to be a servant of someone else, he can't really, so he needs Vera's "help".

More theorizing (with a suspect this time):
Spoiler : :
So, for Chandler's murder, that leaves:
- Zachary
- Tiefenheim
- Ost
- Leid
- Vera
- Luna
- Philo
- Chandler (I'm still not completely sure there isn't something up with him)

Now let's take a look at Leid's fake murder:

Image

At the time of the gunshot, according to the testimonies, Princess and Tiefenheim were in the hallway in front of the "crime scene", Ost and Lira were in the parlor, Zachary was in the guest room 2 and Liwei was in the foyer. The others were upstairs in their rooms - Vera in guest room 5, Doors and Cretarie in the music room, Luna in the L. room and Hind and Eral probably in guest room 4 (directly above the crime scene) or guest room 6 (to the left of guest room 4).
Of the suspects for Chandler's murder, Ost has a very good alibi, while Zachary and Leid don't.
What's interesting here is who heard what. I assume that every sound was heard in every adjacent room, but not vertically, because otherwise Hind and Eral should have heard something. It fits for most of them. Lira and Ost were next to the hallway and heard Princess' scream, but they weren't next to the entertainment room, so they didn't hear the gunshot. The same goes for Liwei. Tiefenheim and Princess were in the hallway and next to the entertainment room, so they heard everything. However, Zachary, being next to both the hallway and the entertainment room, should have heard the same as Tiefenheim and Princess, but heard only the gunshot.
I doubt the argument took place somewhere else than the gunshot, because, where? I assume Tiefenheim and Princess could tell apart whether the sounds came from the entertainment room or guest room 3 in the exact other direction. It also couldn't have been upstairs, because Eral and Hind would have heard that. I suppose it could have been guest room 2, but that's where Zachary was staying. So, there's definitely something wrong with Zachary's testimony here.
Also, if Leid wasn't faking his death on his own, how did the culprit get out? Not through the door, because that's where Princess and Tiefenheim were standing. That leaves the window. I think Zachary could have climbed out of the window and went to his own room after setting up the crime scene. Then after some time he shot through his own open window with another gun (Colt Socom?) or something and left his room. Still, that doesn't explain what that argument meant. But at the moment Zachary seems very suspicious to me because his testimony contradicts that of many other witnesses. Also, he was the one who suggested to check Leid's pulse later.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Blackrune wrote:But it's a secretttt
That is the worst secret ever, Rune. Like, seriously. Why? Us inquiring minds want to know! :(

Also, yeah. Have to do SOMETHING if I can't sleep. Might as well write another WoT response. And I'll note some other stuff while I'm here. And looks like Evolina responded, so I'll do that too.
Spoiler : To DWaM :
DWaM wrote: - The culprit had no guarantee that certain individuals would show up or not. Some people were merely +1s. So, if we assume that the culprit has direct targets, we can essentially eliminate everyone's +1s except Door's secretary and Vera herself (since I'm pretty sure the whole point was for her to be there... which does incriminate Lira to a point - considering that it was an amazing coincidence that they ended up in the party in the first place).
Spoiler : :
I will say that the fact that Tiefenheim basically states that Vera coming was part of the plan is by far the strongest evidence in favor of the Philo-Raven hypothesis. However, I do have a counterpoint to that:

Vera and Chandler were planning to go ANYWAY, just sneak in, instead of being actually invited. As long as the data gets leaked to Chandler (or he spreads it along, if he is secretly a member of JP), Vera coming in some way or another is essentially a certainty. Lira inviting her really just made things simpler. Now is it a crazy coincidence worth considering? Yes.

Although that makes me curious: if you're going to have Lira invite her... did you need to even have Chandler act as a proxy at all? If you want Chandler to also come, surely Vera will tell him afterwards regardless. It just feels like an unnecessary step if Lira was always part of the plan.
DWaM wrote:Again, assuming that the culprit has certain targets in mind. The next issue would be - just how many people CAN he kill? What is his ultimate objective? In fact, assuming that the culprit had a direct group of people in mind and this was all somehow planned out to a point, you have to wonder how he'd even be able to pick out his targets - as in, how did he KNOW that these people would show up, after all. Excluding Luna or Ost, was there really a way to know the exact people that would turn up?
If we're assuming a pre-defined target... there really isn't. You're operating on probability at best. And there were some people (Hu in particular) that it seems insanely unlikely would attend at all. Which leaves us with Luna and Ost; one of whom has been alone in her room for much of the game, and the other being somebody who has been wandering around- definitely unsupervised at points- and isn't particularly hard to isolate and kill. Which means that either the killer is currently physically unable to kill their target for whatever reason, they have some kind of limitation placed on them for WHEN they can kill the target, or... something else. The first is something that doesn't seem to apply to anybody, the second makes no sense, and... what else is there?

But no, this is definitely an odd point worth considering: the killer's motivations don't seem particularly clear. Especially since they still haven't made a move; if they want to kill anybody in the mansion (Chandler was an uninvited guest; at best the JP corporation highly, highly suspected he'd turn up. Surely they have some other goal here as well?)... why aren't they seeming to do anything at all? It's quite odd.
DWaM wrote:- Of course, if we go with the idea that the real 'muder' is yet to take place and that Joseph was just a means to an end or something, then there's only one person we should be looking at here as a victim - possibly Doors, and he's the biggest chance the culprit had of knowing with 100% certainty that he'd come.
Sure, and it kind of makes sense that the killer couldn't have gotten him yet- if Jack's not a member of JP, he looks physically formidable. So basically, you would need to either figure out a way to kill them both (rather inconvenient and probably difficult), or split the two apart (possibly even more so). But there's still something odd; if the inaction of the killer is the result of wanting to separate them- exactly how does the killer intend to... well, separate them? Those two are staying in the same room. If they choose to stay the night, they'll still be sleeping in said same room. It feels like if you want to kill Doors and yet can't do it with Jack around... the killer should be doing SOMETHING to divide those two. Yet... they really aren't.

This just doesn't seem to make any sense; it feels like the killer should be far more proactive than they're currently being.

I agree with you regarding time- I don't see any coherent motive there either. I only even listed it because it's one of the few possibilities I can even think of for the killer's actions here.
DWaM wrote:- True, the culprit could be just having a ball on killing a bunch of people for no reason at all other than to screw with Vera and co., but I'd like to keep this idea in the back-seat, since I'm fairly sure that all of this is planned out to a T. [/b]
Really? Because, assuming a single culprit... I'm not getting that impression at all. This whole thing seems rather... chaotic, honestly. Look at Chandler's closed room; it's a mess. There's no sign of a struggle, yet the use of the bolt seems to imply a non-premeditated killing (or at least some level of improvisation); especially if you're dealing with the JP Corporation. If that closed room was planned and Chandler was the intended target... why the crossbow bolt? Why not the JP's pet Colt Socom? Yes, if you know the layout of the room, you're aware of the existence of that murder weapon; you also need to get it, and kill Chandler with it. While not causing a struggle where Chandler could say, scream, or otherwise possibly attract unwanted attention. It's just... bizarre.

And if you look at the locked room... it's the same thing. Several things have been moved around. The mirror is broken. Why? JP's locked rooms are typically rather simple, basic, and leave minimal trace evidence. If the locked room trick requires things around the room and other things have been moved to hide that fact... that also seems to imply improv.
DWaM wrote:- ...Actually, something else that crossed my mind now that we're on Leid's case again... You have to wonder why Leid was knocked out in the first place, aside from the 'framing him' part of it - I discussed it, yes, but let's try and think of it this way: A) The culprit couldn't have known that Leid would be the one to call the police, much else visit a specific room. B) The culprit couldn't have counted on the amnesia happening - Leid had the potential of seeing his attacker or having a change of heart. C) With everyone alerted, why take this risk? Can we honestly say this was all part of the plan? Why not just kill the guy and be done with it? Did the culprit have a way for him to be there at a specific time and a specific place? Could the culprit've really known that Leid would've just lost his memory and the memory of his attacker (who he probably saw, given that the gun was out)?
Yeah. That whole scenario makes a whole bunch more sense if Leid is faking... well... everything. The amnesia, the attack... everything. Otherwise... a lot of assumptions and guesswork are at play here. But as I'll say again later: I'm not comfortable saying that Leid is an accomplice of the murderer either; both in that they already have one in Tiefenheim- so why do they need another? And this whole thing really isn't to the killer's benefit.
DWaM wrote:EDIT: This didn't occur to me until Evo suggested the relevance of forecast, but what if the idea was that they couldn't predict the convenient snowstorm that would stop the cops from arriving, thus forcing them to stop anyone from calling the cops, including Leid? if he did it intentionally or not, it still doesn't change much - the culprit got what he wanted - the cops wouldn't have gotten there for at least an hour. And by that time, the storm already came...
The main thing that bugs me about this, actually... is: doesn't the usage of a drug indicate some level of premeditation? It feels like everything is getting muddled again. Psychologically, it just feels like this killer is all over the place. Improv where there should be premeditation. Premeditation where there should be improv.
DWaM wrote:...Well no, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. ...Oh, actually it does! Assuming that the thing that went off/gunshot/whatever is something that could be only heard from the hallway, and the people arguing/screaming were Tief/Princess THEMSELVES... Hm... Still... It's a bit of a stretch... But assuming that what they heard wasn't actually a gunshot (or maybe there was no sound to begin with and Tief and Princess just improvised in this scenario, too?) due to the 1-hour gap since Leid decided to bail... Assuming he didn't intend to fake his death, of course.
Spoiler : :
Actually, I think you've basically got it. The sound Vira, Ost, and Hu heard was probably PRINCESS screaming. That makes a lot more sense; Zurich did mention something about Princess fainting too, come to think of it. That just leaves the main weird thing being that Zurich heard the gunshot and not the argument. If it escalated into shouting and Princess and Tief could hear it... I fail to see how somebody in the next room couldn't. Which would definitely imply that one of those two is lying... but I'm not sure I get why.

The first solution is that Zurich wouldn't actually in the next room. But that makes no sense if Tief isn't also lying (which, admittedly, is completely possible), because he claims that Zurich immediately came out of Guest Room #2. But... couldn't Princess refute that if it's false? Why lie about something that could so easily be exposed as a lie? The second solution is that Zurich WAS in the next room, but for some reason lied about the argument. But he has no reason to do that. Even as the killer... he doesn't gain anything.

Solution #3, which is actually the most persuasive, is that Princess and Tief are lying and there was no argument. So... why are they lying about that? To give the whole "murder" angle more credibility? That feels... unnecessary.
DWaM wrote:Well, again, assuming that Leid just... lied (huh) and the latch on the non-broken down door was set... I'd say it's still doable.
My main problem here is that I can't believe Blackrune would have the evidence list lie to me. I think the closest I've seen that happen was Pairs, and even there it wasn't an actual LIE. And that's what it feels like it would be in this case. The evidence description typically reports facts, not beliefs. So... if it says that those bolts were there... I'm not sure I'm comfortable disagreeing with that.
DWaM wrote:True, but an unreliable narrator can just distort the sense of time and such. She could've done all of this and then been all like 'where are you, Mr. Ost, it's been so long'. It DID take him an awful long to set up the dinner, no...?
Completely true... but even if we completely disregard her sense of time... nobody says anything like "Wow Vera, what took you so long?" when she gets back. Honestly, I think that if we disregard her bizarre dreams (Which is probably all that Zombie Chandler was; it's just framed in a slightly deceptive way), Vera is probably relatively reliable.
Since Evolina's stuff isn't CRAZY long, I can probably do it without the spoiler tag.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
I agree that someone from outside being the culprit would probably be lame. I think he could be a member of JP, Raven for example, but not the culprit in this case.
When did Tiefenheim say that?
Spoiler : :
Eh. I get why you guys are leaning towards him being Raven, but I'm uncertain. It would both mean he killed his own wife for some unknown reason, and... just seems a bit weird to me. I can't really pinpoint why.

I believe Tief said it during that lounge conversation? Probably when you present the raven pendant? I'm not sure, but I do distinctly recall it.
I don't really have too much to say with most of this, so yeah. Pretty short.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
Perhaps they took everything from him when he was already a member/servant/whatever of JP. He calls Raven an "old buddy" too ...
So now he wants to take revenge, but due to him having used to be a servant of someone else, he can't really, so he needs Vera's "help".
Spoiler : :
Hmm. That's possible, I can't deny that. Also, if you're referring to the part I think you are (it was in that conversation at the beginning, right?) I was a bit confused too... but I'm pretty sure that's a playful nickname for Vera. I could be wrong there, though.
And finally, I think I'll basically sum up what my current thoughts are on this whole mess.
Spoiler : :
Okay, I think I've noted that I feel that Chandler faked his death; Evolina kind of summed up a couple reasons why earlier, but I'll just quickly list some also: The large amount of blood on the bed (and we already know that the people in the mansion have access to fake blood from Leid's "shooting"), the lighting (I'm not sure what the best murder-explanation for that is), the inconsistencies with JP Corp's MO: the bolt instead of a gun, for instance.

So yeah, here's roughly how I think it would work: I like Enthalpy's explanation mostly, so I'll break that down, with alteration of a single point.

So, Chandler goes into the room, bringing the suitcase that Ost recalled Chandler had, and closes the door. He then breaks the mirror, and uses the shards as a makeshift knife to file down a crossbow bolt slightly. Then, he uses the sink- and maybe some soap- to send the shards down the drain, thereby removing the evidence. (He could also have put the shards in said suitcase.) He then tosses some fake blood on his bed, puts out some padding or object X from his suitcase, which he can then use to prevent from actually being stabbed, despite the bolt appearing to stick through his chest. He then moves his suitcase to another room (that suitcase being the mysterious object from the table.) He returns, creates the locked room, tosses the fake blood on the bed, and stabs himself.

Now, I'd say this is relatively workable, and meshes with most of the evidence. I have two main concerns: One is that this doesn't explain the moved table or cabinet. The game suggests that said moved items are a distraction/irrelevant, but that in itself makes me rather suspicious (The last time a character in a mystery novel I read dismissed an aspect as "irrelevant" and told the detective to focus on other aspects, it was because said aspect was essentially the weakest point in his entire plan.). The game also explicitly suggests that the shards were sent down the drain. Now, this is a much less serious problem (where else could the shards have gone, really?), but I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with the game giving me part of the answer like that.

Now, let's talk about the suitcase. Why was it removed from the room? Now, on this aspect, I'm not sure. It may be that the suitcase contained the fake blood, and thus Chandler needed to hide it in an empty room, else it would be obvious that the death was a sham. Perhaps said suitcase included other things he didn't want people to see; it could have been a good deal of different items, really.

Regardless, that suitcase could have also contained a rope. That rope could have then been used for the rope trick suggested by DWaM and Enthalpy earlier, in combination with Ost's crossbow- which he takes from the trophy room after faking his death- in order to get access into Leid's room. They then either fake an argument, which Tief and Valerie report hearing. (I'd lean towards faking. Although, regardless, that raises the question: despite being in the next room, why didn't Zachary hear anything?) Chandler and Leid arrange the scene with the blood, fire the gun, and Leid fakes being dead. Chandler then escapes from the room somehow- could he have climbed back up the rope, then brought the rope back up with him?

I do think that this theory does explain a good deal. It explains most of the oddities of the locked room in the first case, at least partially explains some aspects of the second, and on a whole, I simply find the whole scenario thus far far more conceivable if both cases have been faked.

Now, of course, I do see some problems. As noted, it doesn't account for a few oddities in both the first and second cases. I definitely don't see the POINT in Chandler doing all of this: if he's faking his death, why? Is the logic behind all this to try and get the JP Corporation off-script and thereby potentially give away who they are? Why has he, you know, not given any hint to Vera that any of this is going on? If both cases are fakes, then what is going on here? What is the JP Corporation doing? Why has the murderer apparently done precisely nothing this entire night? What IS the murderer's agenda?
Heck, if both cases are faked, do we have reason to think there's a murderer at all?
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by DWaM »

Meh, I give up.
Spoiler : :
The killer is insane and has multiple personalities all of which wanna kill people but aren't aware of each other.

gg, case closed, I'm going for lunch.

My reasoning skillz just can't handle this.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by kwando1313 »

That's not how you give up, DWaM.
Spoiler : :
Obviously, the killer is Unknown Person X who can walk through walls and has a love of locked rooms~ Image
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by NihilisticNinja »

ITT: NN continues his unique form of "speculation" which involves bombarding the person who he is talking with with WoTs until everybody gets tired of discussing. It is indeed a unique skill.

Also, yeah. Like, I see three-four things wrong in my above post now that I look at it but at this point all I'm doing is making my head hurt. Will just have to see what happens in Part 3.
Spoiler : :
Hope Vera can get over her guilt issues when it comes to things that aren't her fault and get more stable though. She's pretty cool and gone through a lot. Makes me feel bad for ever suspecting her; including back after Part 2 was finished and, like, all I knew was her name. Thanks Blackrune. You made me feel guilty over retroactive suspicions. :gumshoe:
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by kwando1313 »

Spoiler : :
Well... I don't think it was Vera though. Though, I do suspect Vera has something to do with the events which have taken place today... Heck, maybe JP was founded /because/ of Vera's existence.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by DeeYo »

Spoiler : :
If you have time, you may wanna read Poe's most famous works. Preferably "The Raven". With Lenores and nevermores and stuff, that may provide a clue... or not.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by NihilisticNinja »

kwando1313 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well... I don't think it was Vera though. Though, I do suspect Vera has something to do with the events which have taken place today... Heck, maybe JP was founded /because/ of Vera's existence.
Spoiler : :
Hm? Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I don't think Vera's done anything. Heck, I'm still of the opinion that this all might be devoted to breaking her. Let me rephrase- at the end of Case 2 I was like "OMG VERA IS TOTES RAVEN FOR REALS", and now I've met her and am like "Oh poor Vera, now I feel bad for you. I wish I hadn't suspected you back when you had said, like, those 4 lines of dialogue. I'm sorry. :( "

Also, Vera's existence causing the founding of JP is an amazing idea, though it merely makes me feel worse for her. She's like a black hole of misfortune. And I'm sure that was a horrible simile.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by kwando1313 »

Spoiler : :
Ah, I see what you mean. But... Rune did say this was an AU to JS...
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by DWaM »

@NN:
Oh, no, it wasn't because of you. I just know when to stop. XP As far as I'm concerned, there really isn't anything more here I can use to speculate, that's all.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by NihilisticNinja »

kwando1313 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Ah, I see what you mean. But... Rune did say this was an AU to JS...
Spoiler : :
Hm, he did? Ah, I must have missed that and got confused since the events of Parts 2 and 3 happen in both. Well, even if Vera does end up being EVIL AND SINISTER in canon, I'll still kind of feel bad for her, since basically she didn't have to turn out that way. :(
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by kwando1313 »

NihilisticNinja wrote:
kwando1313 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Ah, I see what you mean. But... Rune did say this was an AU to JS...
Spoiler : :
Hm, he did? Ah, I must have missed that and got confused since the events of Parts 2 and 3 happen in both. Well, even if Vera does end up being EVIL AND SINISTER in canon, I'll still kind of feel bad for her, since basically she didn't have to turn out that way. :(
Spoiler : :
Yeah, it's something I asked him about when I beta'd. But... I might be misremembering things...
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Evo
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Evo »

Spoiler : :
After thinking about this more, I don't Zachary is the culprit anymore. There must be some other reason why he didn't hear the argument. Perhaps it didn't take place in the entertainment room after all...?
Joseph faking his death seems more and more likely, however, I have one problem with this: when the police arrives, surely they'll see whether he is alive or not. Unless the body magically disappears at the beginning of the next part. But that would make it too obvious.
Still, at this point, I'm thinking the culprit is either Joseph or Vera. What I'm assuming to be the culprit's monologues always take place at a time Vera isn't conscious, and also the culprit always ends their monologues with "nevermore", which "Joseph" also says in the final scene. Speaking of nevermore, thismight be very interesting, considering it involves nevermore, a raven and a women named Lenore.
Does anyone have an idea how the final scene could be interpreted? I think it could be the key to this case.

Vera: Mr. van Chandler... Why did you have to die?
???: ...An excellent question.
???: W-What?
Joseph (?): ...
???: I-Impossible!
Joseph (?): Long time no see.
How have you been?
???: Y-You!
How can you possibly still be alive?
Joseph (?): A major oversight.
You should have examined that corpse when you got the chance.
???: ...
???: I see what’s going on here.
So that has happened.
???: In that case, you can no longer harm me. Give up.
Joseph (?): You think I’m out of cards?
Maybe you should just stick to chess.
Joseph (?): From my experiences chess players are quite appropiate company for you.
???: What are you trying to do?
You’ve lost.
Joseph (?): A shame, really...
Suppose I can’t fool the raven.
Joseph (?): I don’t give a damn!
Screw your games.
Screw your mystery.
Joseph (?): Maybe I can’t get to you anymore... whatever...
Joseph (?): I can still mess up your final little plan and piss you off as much as possible. I’ll take what I
can get.
???: Y-You... think logically!
There’s nothing you can do.
Joseph (?): Ah, don’t forget my final trump card.
Joseph (?): Psychologically speaking, chances are not bad our favorite murderer won’t survive the
Night.
???: There’s no way you’d go that far! You’re not exactly better if you do that!
Joseph (?): ...do you seriously think I CARE at this point? Remember what you did?
Joseph (?): As long as we‘re going insane we may as well go the whole way.
Joseph (?): A mere shred of sanity is of no value!
???: You’ve lost it.
Pathetic.
Joseph (?): I’ll get you. For a final wish, I’d want you to be able to hear my laughter from hell.
Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.
???: ...I don’t think so.
Joseph (?):
???: You are bound by the laws of purity. Even now, you cannot go against your oath.
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Joseph (?): What kind of joke is this?
I don’t give a damn about your ‘perfect’ mystery anymore.
Joseph (?): It’s already stained. The rules have been violated.
Joseph (?): Why should I adhere to rules you have already broken?
???: ...What?
Joseph (?): ...I get it. We both have no clue what went wrong. Perfect.
Joseph (?): Don’t feign too much ignorance though. I know you’re cheating your way around the
board too.
Joseph (?): With that out of the way, let’s have a chat about the matter at hand, shall we?
Joseph (?): There’s something that I simply HAVE to adress here...
???: ...Checkmate.
Joseph (?): ...What now?
Joseph (?):
???: Even if you’re not bound by the oath, you’re still bound by THEIR restrictions.
Joseph (?): ...This is how it works, huh? This resctriction doesn’t even make sense for them.
???: It does. They don’t actually want to let you go, after all.
Joseph (?): ...Right. Give up on the truth for the sake of a higher truth, or something?
???: There’s nothing left you can do. Just leave.
Joseph (?): Oh dear.
Is that it?
Joseph (?): I suppose it means more work for my trump card. Let’s start with that then.
???: It’s people like you that are hard to understand. Why don’t you give up when there’s clearly no
hope?
Joseph (?): ...You still have a lot to learn about human logic, my beloved friend.
Joseph (?): Well then, my dear trump card. Shall we begin?
Joseph (?): Sadly I am forbidden from telling you any tales of relevance.
Joseph (?): However, I will still attempt to guide you... by asking the right questions.
Joseph (?): You have done well. Better than me. It wasn’t wrong to entrust this to you.
Joseph (?): Will you be able to exact revenge in my stead? I suppose that’s what I’m hoping for the
most.
Joseph (?): Don’t worry too much about getting these questions right at this point.
Joseph (?): See them as guidelines for your reasoning. Find the right answers for this corrupted
mystery.
Joseph (?): Use whatever method of reasoning you deem appropiate. I’m sure you can reach the... a
truth.
Joseph (?): Question one:
Am I really Joseph F. X. van Chandler?
Joseph (?): Is Joseph F. X. van Chandler dead or alive?
Joseph (?): So far so good...
???: You do realize you’re playing right into our hands with this?
Joseph (?): That depends on the climax of the show, wouldn’t you agree? We still have a lot of time.
Joseph (?): What about the crime scene?
What actually happened to him there?
If you pick murder: {Joseph (?): In that case, why wasn’t it Mr. Ost who was murdered?
Joseph (?): Is the locked room trick you came up with actually what the murderer used?
Joseph (?): Heh... can you actually disprove it?}
If you pick suicide: {Joseph (?): Can you think of a reason why he might have committed suicide?
Joseph (?): Aside from the psychological take, is there any evidence suggesting suicide?}
If you pick fake death: Joseph (?): Can you think of any reason for him to fake his death?
If you pick accident: Joseph (?): Has there been anything suggesting an accident?
Joseph (?): Keep thinking.
Joseph (?): Mr. Leid is suspected due to circumstantial evidence. A horrible approach to crimes.
Joseph (?): What do you think?
Did he actually try to fake his death?
Joseph (?): Then what happened?
???: You’re just being desperate.
Joseph (?): Is there a murderer in this building?
If you pick no: Joseph (?): Maybe there’s a relevant murderer outside this building though?
Joseph (?): Very well.
Who is it?
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): That will have to do for now.
???: It was entertaining, watching this fool’s struggle.
Joseph (?): I’ve merely set some more gears into motion.
Joseph (?): My revenge will be executed exactly as scheduled.
???: You know it won’t happen.
Joseph (?): Soon, you will turn from the hunter into the hunted.
Joseph (?): It might be even more appropiate than a direct death. A little burning before the end.
Joseph (?): This is the end for you...
Joseph (?): There is no future for you...
Joseph (?): ...Nevermore.


What I noticed is that he implied she was Raven and that he wants to take revenge on her. If that really is Joseph. It could be him, or someone dressing up as him, or Vera's imagination, or perhaps they're communicating via the Judgement Seekers' objects' telepathy. I doubt these were explained in the beginning for no reason. Could he actually have been stabbed with the dagger instead of an arrow...?
Anyway there are many things hidden in this scene.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by DeeYo »

Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
Speaking of nevermore, thismight be very interesting, considering it involves nevermore, a raven and a women named Lenore.
DeeYo wrote:
Spoiler : :
If you have time, you may wanna read Poe's most famous works. Preferably "The Raven". With Lenores and nevermores and stuff, that may provide a clue... or not.
Spoiler : :
Too slow~

But the theories are nice. I like them, even though nothing is confirmed and the real solution will probably be something that Rune pulls out of his behind at the last moment~ because if you spoil it now, he'll have to spite you and come up with a new solution.
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