[T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout ○

[ventuswings]

Spoiler : SoC prologue :

Nice description of the basic rules. Expecting the narrator to tear them apart with massive explosions. No? Wow, I haven't had heard so quiet of an intro for a while.

So I'm Vera. Nice of her to escape from the ruins of Judgment Seeker series.

Waiting for Zeta Astra story to converge at some point into actual trial.

Okay, so perhaps lot of background from JS series are carried over? My memory on them is pretty vague, and I don't believe plot hadn't been established that much there. Even if I'm wrong, it's probably a good thing to see this from a fresh new perspective since such knowledge will likely be irrelevant or, at worst, obfuscating.

*comes across the first choice, clicks one without realizing it* I ALWAYS DO THAT. MUCH APOLOGIES THE LITTLE GIRL.

I feel bad because I don't recognize all the trials being mentioned here.

The most violent are usually the normal ones.

What are you doing Lira? Never refuse a map! ...Now I'm afraid certain someone is about to throw hundred more evidences at us... (or people, just people)

Hey, Hercule Poirot worked hard for murder prevention, never mind the fact that he rarely succeeded.

Hmm, looks like lot of characters from other trials are converging into this case

I'm loving the amount of presents available, most of them actually quite insightful. Well, except apparently Will's opinion on Lira. Wonder what makes that conversation unique.

Luna isn't married, whoa?!

Candia press typo: "guit" the army.
Luna 'Leid' present typo: I never dislike winters. "It#s" my favourite season

R.I.P. We hardly knew yee, van Chandler.

Edit:

Spoiler : Investigation question :

There seem to be bit of contradiction when 'moved table' is presented:

[William] Hey, you're right! My worktable is usually in the center of the right section.
[Moved Table] A larger table. Marks on the ground suggest it has been moved to the left. Originally positioned in the center of the left section of the room.

Can you inform me which one is correct?

[Blackrune]

Edit:

Spoiler : Investigation question :

There seem to be bit of contradiction when 'moved table' is presented:

[William] Hey, you're right! My worktable is usually in the center of the right section.
[Moved Table] A larger table. Marks on the ground suggest it has been moved to the left. Originally positioned in the center of the left section of the room.

Can you inform me which one is correct?

Spoiler : :

Whoops, my mistake. I probably wanted to have William say something like it was in the center, which is more to the right compared to where it's located now. But yeah, the description is correct. It's in the left section.

You released it?

Good indeed.


RUNE IS USING MY SPRITES YAEY Then again who isn't in this comp?
There's still hope DWaM isn't.

Spoiler : SoCk :

Kind of a long intro for something with no graphics but bleah.
I know. I... write too much sometimes.

Oh hey, Vera Night.
Hi.

This taxi driver is going to do something isn't he. EVERY CASE IN THIS COMP MUST HAVE A SHERLOCK HOMAGE.
CONVERGENCE

Jazzy.
There's more of that later on, since some Rose Guns Days is part of the soundtrack. It's pretty jazzy at times

Franzy, eh? 10 quid says she'll be Hazama'd again.
Just believe me for once.

EXXER! DAMN YOU RUNE! DAMN YOU AND YOUR OBSESSION WITH RECURRING CHARACTERS!
This is one big meeting of recurring characters.

was that the pokemon PC noise
Yes. That's... that's the sound PCs make in my head when booting up for some reason.

"No more when I'm talking to Joseph F. X. van Chandler, for his replies are beyond comprehension." SUBTLE NAMEDROP
I saw no way anyone would ever say out that ridiculous name in full while still being subtle.

"Can't hurt to keep it on me." Yes it can you idiot guns are dangerous
"Hi Vera. Welcome back in America. Have a free gun."

Ohey, Lira.
Yo.

Oh damn, James Richter is deads.
I know. I liked him too..

OK, this setup is getting kind of overbearing now.
I think I should've spread that info out a little more. Fortunately you don't have to remember most of that stuff

Maria? Well, that raises chronology questions. I think. Honestly Runeverse is so convoluted I can't even
Could be a multiverse.

NEVERMOREBLARGHWHAWHYDAMNITRUNE
For fun.

Mr. Van Chandler Bing?
I don't know that guy.

Is... is that a Katawa Shoujo background? It looks an awful lot like the train station from the Lilly route.
Possible. I just got them from those background packs that float around here.

Oh hey, actual gameplay.
Probably about time.

Hehehe duplicate backgrounds.
CONVERGENCE

VELIND

"He may not be alive for much longer." DON'T KILL OFF VELIND WWHY

oh my god what is with all the russian in this comp
I chose the same background for the mansion entrance as Zeelkirby and I somehow ended up having a guy with a Russian theme in it too. I have no adequate explanation as for how this could ever happen either.

But... but... that means the Butler couldn't have done it!

Oh crap we doubled up on Caleb
And they're both annoying. (but considering what his sprites consist of, that's almost a given.)

Hah, everyone's using Lennis except me. And possibly TwiGav, who hasn't released his. And DwaMPing which I refuse to play. I forget why, I think it was because of GK2 stuff or something. Basically both you and ZeelKK.
Yeah, everyone thought Lionel was everywhere when it's actually Lennis in secret.

"Cretarie". Wow, you are the master of name puns. Also I think this is the first time I've seen anyone use Zach in a trial.
Seemed underused and fit well with Lennis because scars.

Tiefenholycrap
At your service.

Good god how many characters do you have
A lot.

Jegus funking christ even more characters
Yep.

ORIGINAL DESIGNS
That, too.

Hahaha, Knox's 5th cracked me up.

Oh god it's Luna

Screw the rules, I have huge hair!

GAMEPLAAAAAAAY

I like how you've set this up.
Avoiding investigation panels at all costs.

I'm liking this Liwei guy.

Wait. Did Vera ever mention she was a DA?

This guy wouldn't look out of place in a round of TF2.

I'm liking Eral too.

Ooh, Tarot readings.

NUDIE PARTS TEEHEE
Shhh Not so loud.

Yes OK I like scars I include them in a lot of my character designs get off my back jack
IT'S YOUR FAULT THEY HAD A BAD CHILDHOOD.

Calling it now, Tiefenheim dies.
Probably would've had it coming.

I like how we both made Caleb insufferable, but in totally different ways.
Well the sprites pretty much tell you to make him insufferable, but there are fortunately a few ways as to how exactly you do it.

"Raven's identity is quite obvious". AFGSFBH KBBVHSFAKFEQI9SF
Yep. He just told youthat you suck.

Aaaaaand he's dead.

Or not.

Ost is Raven, isn't he?

"Our president was almost shot last week" Oh yeah, this was mentioned earlier. Do I smell a Convergence?
Good nose.

Guest is totally the victim.

LOCKED RUNE
You saw this coming.

"An Ace Attorney fangame"... Uh, it is? I couldn't see the faintest trace of Ace Attorney in this.
We're playing as a defense attorney. So...

Will do part 2 later.

Spoiler : Enigma Reviews: ~Burial of a Turnabout~ :

Overall Impression
Yeah, I'm doing this all topsy turvy! Why? Because I'm new, I'm fresh, I'm pandering to peoples desires, I'm desperately lonely and live in a cardboard box and every day I have to stop dogs urinating on my house and why must everyone hate me and...

Whoah. Got a little of track there. Silly me. Ahaha... Oh my god what did I write. Let me... Let me start over.
By all means, elaborate.

So, to be different I'm going to cut straight to the chase and tell you what I think of the game. It was fun. The end.
Okay. bai.

Well, actually it was more than fun. It was pretty damn downright enjoyable. Why? Because, unlike a lot of games on the site, it really pandered to the little person in me who wanted to mess with things and experiment. And, boy, did I want to experiment when I discovered VeraXLuna. (Which you didn't let me do, you asshole. ) But that's a story for another day.

Anyway, I guess what I liked was how it offered so much optional gameplay... But not much when it came to branching out of the VN/Adventure type game. What do I mean by that? Lot's of stuff to do, not much gameplay, basically. And that's exactly what I wanted. I mean, besides the two locked rooms (which frustrated me ever so dearly) it was pretty much your standard VN with a little more things to do or see. Hell, there weren't even any investigation locations, as I remember. And that's the brilliance to me. You've made something that feels very open to exploration without having much that I'm forced to do. On top of that, I liked how it felt less AA and more, hm... Well, Layton or Ghost Trick to me. That's a weird thing to say, but it's true. Maybe it's because I'm off my meds or maybe it's because I never felt like I was doing anything other than solving puzzles when it came to mandatory gameplay.
I find it funny how something technically this linear can still get called "open to exploration".

Another thing that it did well? Characters. But I'll get to that later.

So, overall, what do I think? Truly enjoyable. Looking forward to the next parts.

Plot and Writing
Well, I hate to say it but you're writing at the start needed improvement in my mind. It was a little rushed, at least that's how it came off to me. Prologue, airport, ZOMG, room, random TV, guy, random Greece, taxi. Just kind of snapped scenes in my face and said "THIS IS STORY! THIS IS PREMISE!" And that was... Kind of uncomfortable. But, hey, it got much better once we got to the real plot and story. Now, this is where everything turns great. It's Rune being Rune. In other words, it's exactly what you'd expect of a mystery. A bunch of people in a remote location at a party and one by one they start dying. So, it starts off with And Then There Were None. And I love ATTWN, so that got a big thumbs up from me. Especially when we wheel out the locked rooms. So, really, Rune started going less ATTWN and back to, sigh, Umineko. But, hey, he pulled it off so why complain? And the writing in all of the "after 'PREMISE!!!'" was really good, by the way. It really hit that "mystery" vibe. Where it really was best, though? That last trippy scene. Pretty sure that Vera was taking SOMETHING when I got there. But, I can't help but admit that was my favorite scene. It made no sense but spoke so much about Vera and her psyche. And it was action packed without having anything but a bunch of talking. So, no explosions and I still bet it would entertain Michael Bay fans? Nah, too overused. Americans? Politically incorrect. Hmm... an anarchist. So, besides that start, <good> job.
The beginning could've been handled better. I agree.

Music
Give me the OST as a downloadable package. There we go. That's all I have to say. (Well, except Leids "evil" theme. That was just grating on the ears in the "dubstep-y" parts.)
IYou'll get your package later.

Gameplay
I already talked alot about this before but, there's never such a thing as too much elaboration, right? Especially when it's that "speeecial kind of elaboration~". Anyway, I loved the gameplay here. I don't know if it was a lot or not to program but, well, it certainly felt like a lot. Though, at the same time, it felt like not much at all. And that's the beauty of it. I don't feel overwhelmed with gameplay. Rune basically goes "Oh, hey. You can do some cool stuff here. If you want to. You know, it's cool and all." I don't have to do cross examinations, I don't have to do presents or anything. Well, except for when Runes locked room fetish kicks in. But, even that, wasn't too bad. It was an inventive and fun piece of gameplay even if it was pretty damn difficult. And the thing is, it looked simple. It didn't overwhelm me. And that's actually kind of how I think a lot of games in the future should be. Lots of things to explore, and only minimal forced gameplay. And that's really how games should be. Minimal gameplay, maximum extra stuff to explore and check out. Speaking of which, my favorite gimmick? NUDITY. *Cough* I mean, Tarot cards. Doing that was always fun, and I looked ta them all. There was amazing music and a cool sense of vague foreshadowing that you KNEW was going to make so much sense in the future. Now that, that was a really cool trick. As for the choices? Don't know where you're going with them, but I'm sure they'll lead to something cool. By the way, I went for the no killer and it's all accidents route. I'm thinking that Leid accidentally shot himself somehow, resulting in a non fatal loss of consciousness causing amnesia (or maybe that was when he hit the floor.)
All in all, minimum forced gameplay= maximum greatness.
Well I couldn't have possibly made all that talking mandatory, so I figured I'll leave it up to the players whether to chat away or move on. Optional offers are always a good thing it seems. I intend to proceed on the principle that the player will never be forced to do anything *too* ridiculous.

Characters
Okay, I'm not good at this so I'll give you a summed up version. I loved all the characters. They were all likable in their own special ways. None of them felt real or serious or anything, more like actors in a comedy-drama like Boston Legal. Vaguely realistic but not so much that they can't be wacky and fun. And that's what they were. Eccentric caricatures of possible humans. It reminded me of the very original AA games. All in all, I have no faults with the characters.
Well that's good.

Now, I know I've forgotten to bring stuff up or review things but... Well, I'm a very lazy person so this should suffice by now. Please make the next part soon, Rune. Or I'll kill you.
On it. Though I might take a detour. A small detour. Alright, a tiny one at max. D-Don't look at me like that.

~Enigma

[NihilisticNinja]

Spoiler : On kwando's post-spoilers, obv. :

Well, considering I'm thinking that Philo is Raven... And that Phiko is doing it for her daughter's sake (because dat prologue of this being a burial)

Hm. I forgot you had that hypothesis. It's slightly more feasible given that assumption, but that prologue honestly seemed really... non-Vainheimish to me. (When I read it, I read it as Raven essentially mocking the detective story subgenre; detective stories kind of being Vira- at least-'s deepest passion. Maybe her father is just dozens times more cynical than she is and has gotten disillusioned with the whole thing. That's a possibility.

My main question in this scenario, though, would be if Philo is behind... whatever this is... why did he decline the invitation and pass it on to Vira to choose a guest? And if Vira is in on it... why would she make that guest a hyper-competent defense attorney that has a deep grudge to settle with the JP corporation?

Spoiler : On Dwam's post- spoilers, obv. :

Welp kids, are you ready for another episode of...

DWaM's Crack Theorizing

Well, guys, I guess it's time for another episode of NN argues (kind of, talks mostly) with somebody on the internet! (Okay, your title was a lot better. )

You raise a lot of good points. I will skip over some (either because I have no particular disagreement with them, or nothing to add.) Here are the ones I kind of find interesting. Hope you don't mind if I comment/build on them a bit.

Firstly because if the culprit, say, wanted to kill again, this entire scenario would be a waste of his time, now that Leid's under supervision.

Of course, that raises an interesting issue: how many people do they really want to kill? I mean, we have Chandler (while I remain entirely skeptical that that was even a murder.) And... that's it so far.

And there have been plenty of opportunities; victims have been returning to their rooms and wandering around a good deal during the night. That gives us a couple options:
1. The target is somebody who is pretty much always with somebody (Doors is then a good candidate, for instance.)
2. The culprit is waiting for a predefined time in which to kill their target.
3. The culprit has no designated target at all.

So isn't it possible that the scene was intentionally set up so that when Leid woke up, he would naturally try and jump off through the open window, resorting (somehow, for now) in his death (possibly through the miscalculation in height - as in, the mansion's on a higher ground than anticipated, so he would just fall to his death... OR the culprit wanted him to stick his head out that window so they can shoot him or something).

Theoretically possible, but I have a couple problems:
1. Leid was the one that was going to call the police, and thus it would be especially odd for him to vanish for an extended period of time, as Lira points out. It seems like an incredibly awkward plan to be dependent upon knocking somebody out- without really knowing when they'll wake up- who people are probably going to worry about?
2. They have no guarantee that when Leid wakes up, and sees that the door is locked (presuming either Ost is the culprit or they somehow convince Ost to lock the room), that he isn't... just going to shout for help. I mean, if he no longer has his key, and knows something weird is going on... I personally would go with shouting through the door rather than going through the snow through a conspicuously open window.

Regardless, there are a few of things that support the idea that Leid wasn't aiming to fake his death. The voices heard of a seeming argument. The easy explanation would be that he faked it, but the way it's set up... It's actually more interesting that three people heard something, and three people didn't... What was it, a scream, I believe? It seems too convenient that he just faked an argument using two different voices... Then again, it seems too convinent for there to have been one in the first place. ...Or is it? (I continue this on the discussion of the first murder XP)

The whole "argument/scream/gunshot" thing is rather odd. I hope you'll indulge me I going through that:
Lira and Ost (talking in the lounge), claim to have heard a scream. They rush to the scene, encountering Princess. According to Lira, she claimed to have "heard the same thing". Hu claims to have heard the scream while in the foyer; not an argument or gunshot.

Meanwhile, let's jump back to what Tief and Princess witnessed. Tiefenheim agrees with Princess to escort her to whatever location she wants to go. They then hear someone arguing. They listen for a moment, the argument escalating to shouting and then a gunshot. Zurich then comes out of his room a second later, having heard the gunshot.

So, the only two people that can actually collaborate that an argument occurred were Princess and Tiefenheim. We also have three people who hear just a scream and oddly not a gunshot, and we three people who heard the gunshot, but oddly only two of which heard the scream. (Well, Princess just says she heard "the same thing", according to Lira, but given how the argument supposedly escalated to shouting, a scream is quite probably what she/Lira mean.)

Now, with that in mind, there could be an alternative explanation for this locked room... The issue being that I still can't get around the alibi problem (assuming there is one, anyway). It's simple (assuming it wasn't covered during the locked room investigation) - the latches on one door were never set until the room was actually broken into.

During the narrative, it's never really made clear (which makes sense, given how the room is dark and everything is chaotic), and if we solely rely on that, Leid is the only one that could confirm that the bolts on both doors were set prior to the break in. The summation is basically the same. The evidence about the door on the other hand, states: "Both bolts have been put in locked position. Both locks have been locked. The right door is now broken down, but it was possible to confirm these facts.", so it's probably safe to assume that the doors were indeed locked and bolted.

Still... The issue remains of why kill him in the first place... There is a chance it was a direct psychological way of getting to Vera and damaging her...

This idea is something that actually really intrigues me. Back at the beginning, Tief referred to this as a game. Lira and Vera's winning condition is quite clear: catch whoever is behind the killings. But... I can't help but wonder if JP's winning condition isn't vastly different from just getting away with the murder(s). What that winning condition would BE isn't clear to me, but... breaking Vera is a definite option.

Hell, the alibi problem doesn't apply to her. She left the room unsupervised.

Quick thing here: if we trust her viewpoint, I'm not sure that really works. As I recall- I didn't note this- the kitchen was just a couple minutes from the room everybody else was in, and Ost can testify that she came in and left. I don't think she'd have enough time to have a detour, kill her friend, and set that whole room up.

Eh, I wanted to type more- some hypotheses and such- but this post got crazy long.

[DWaM]

Responses in bold.

Spoiler : @NN :

Firstly because if the culprit, say, wanted to kill again, this entire scenario would be a waste of his time, now that Leid's under supervision.

Of course, that raises an interesting issue: how many people do they really want to kill? I mean, we have Chandler (while I remain entirely skeptical that that was even a murder.) And... that's it so far.

And there have been plenty of opportunities; victims have been returning to their rooms and wandering around a good deal during the night. That gives us a couple options:
1. The target is somebody who is pretty much always with somebody (Doors is then a good candidate, for instance.)
2. The culprit is waiting for a predefined time in which to kill their target.
3. The culprit has no designated target at all.

It's... actually really strange when you think of the culprit's goal in general. We have to keep several things in mind here:

- The culprit had no guarantee that certain individuals would show up or not. Some people were merely +1s. So, if we assume that the culprit has direct targets, we can essentially eliminate everyone's +1s except Door's secretary and Vera herself (since I'm pretty sure the whole point was for her to be there... which does incriminate Lira to a point - considering that it was an amazing coincidence that they ended up in the party in the first place). Again, assuming that the culprit has certain targets in mind. The next issue would be - just how many people CAN he kill? What is his ultimate objective? In fact, assuming that the culprit had a direct group of people in mind and this was all somehow planned out to a point, you have to wonder how he'd even be able to pick out his targets - as in, how did he KNOW that these people would show up, after all. Excluding Luna or Ost, was there really a way to know the exact people that would turn up? Sure, you could claim that Thief was the inside man and had everyone informed, but you have to wonder - it's convenient that, if the killer is targeting certain individuals that they happened to show up to this party, isn't it? Especially if you take into account that they're all somehow connected, I think (if we take into account the suspcious envelopes Ost gave out at the beginning of the party).
- Of course, if we go with the idea that the real 'muder' is yet to take place and that Joseph was just a means to an end or something, then there's only one person we should be looking at here as a victim - possibly Doors, and he's the biggest chance the culprit had of knowing with 100% certainty that he'd come.
- The alternative of a specific time is possible, but the issue is that there really shouldn't be anything flat-out stopping the culprit to move on to phase 2. Everything so far (assuming Leid's thing was the culprit's doing, as well) has been relatively quick and undetectabe... Which actually raises an interesting question, but I'll get to that later. A trap for this part seems unlikely; you have no guarantee that the person you want is going to be at a specific time X or that they'll die at all. No, a time for a trap has more or less passed, in my opinion, regardless if this is following the rules or not. If you want 'a certain trap' that you know will be pulled off, why not just activate it right away?
- True, the culprit could be just having a ball on killing a bunch of people for no reason at all other than to screw with Vera and co., but I'd like to keep this idea in the back-seat, since I'm fairly sure that all of this is planned out to a T.

So isn't it possible that the scene was intentionally set up so that when Leid woke up, he would naturally try and jump off through the open window, resorting (somehow, for now) in his death (possibly through the miscalculation in height - as in, the mansion's on a higher ground than anticipated, so he would just fall to his death... OR the culprit wanted him to stick his head out that window so they can shoot him or something).

Theoretically possible, but I have a couple problems:
1. Leid was the one that was going to call the police, and thus it would be especially odd for him to vanish for an extended period of time, as Lira points out. It seems like an incredibly awkward plan to be dependent upon knocking somebody out- without really knowing when they'll wake up- who people are probably going to worry about?
2. They have no guarantee that when Leid wakes up, and sees that the door is locked (presuming either Ost is the culprit or they somehow convince Ost to lock the room), that he isn't... just going to shout for help. I mean, if he no longer has his key, and knows something weird is going on... I personally would go with shouting through the door rather than going through the snow through a conspicuously open window.

Well, that was a relatively weak argument from me to begin with. XP ...Then again, there's a chance that the room is soundproof or something and the culprit knew that? And, if the culprit killed in the meantime the tension would've been higher, possibly forcing everyone to stick together or something, or just placing the suspicion flat-out on Leid for disappearing. Still - a very awkward plan, indeed.
- ...Actually, something else that crossed my mind now that we're on Leid's case again... You have to wonder why Leid was knocked out in the first place, aside from the 'framing him' part of it - I discussed it, yes, but let's try and think of it this way: A) The culprit couldn't have known that Leid would be the one to call the police, much else visit a specific room. B) The culprit couldn't have counted on the amnesia happening - Leid had the potential of seeing his attacker or having a change of heart. C) With everyone alerted, why take this risk? Can we honestly say this was all part of the plan? Why not just kill the guy and be done with it? Did the culprit have a way for him to be there at a specific time and a specific place? Could the culprit've really known that Leid would've just lost his memory and the memory of his attacker (who he probably saw, given that the gun was out)? It seems... sloppy for something that seems planned out. Because of point A, we have to assume this wasn't in the original idea... or at least, I don't see how it could be, unless the culprit can predict the future or something. And what circumstances would have possibly changed and forced the culprit to actually do this? It seems like a major risk for something that... in the long run, had a bigger chance of hurting him that giving him actual gain. ...This could kind of be a point as to Leid intentionally setting up the scene himself and just lying about the amnesia. Hm...

EDIT: This didn't occur to me until Evo suggested the relevance of forecast, but what if the idea was that they couldn't predict the convenient snowstorm that would stop the cops from arriving, thus forcing them to stop anyone from calling the cops, including Leid? if he did it intentionally or not, it still doesn't change much - the culprit got what he wanted - the cops wouldn't have gotten there for at least an hour. And by that time, the storm already came...

Regardless, there are a few of things that support the idea that Leid wasn't aiming to fake his death. The voices heard of a seeming argument. The easy explanation would be that he faked it, but the way it's set up... It's actually more interesting that three people heard something, and three people didn't... What was it, a scream, I believe? It seems too convenient that he just faked an argument using two different voices... Then again, it seems too convinent for there to have been one in the first place. ...Or is it? (I continue this on the discussion of the first murder XP)

The whole "argument/scream/gunshot" thing is rather odd. I hope you'll indulge me I going through that:
Lira and Ost (talking in the lounge), claim to have heard a scream. They rush to the scene, encountering Princess. According to Lira, she claimed to have "heard the same thing". Hu claims to have heard the scream while in the foyer; not an argument or gunshot.

Meanwhile, let's jump back to what Tief and Princess witnessed. Tiefenheim agrees with Princess to escort her to whatever location she wants to go. They then hear someone arguing. They listen for a moment, the argument escalating to shouting and then a gunshot. Zurich then comes out of his room a second later, having heard the gunshot.

So, the only two people that can actually collaborate that an argument occurred were Princess and Tiefenheim. We also have three people who hear just a scream and oddly not a gunshot, and we three people who heard the gunshot, but oddly only two of which heard the scream. (Well, Princess just says she heard "the same thing", according to Lira, but given how the argument supposedly escalated to shouting, a scream is quite probably what she/Lira mean.)

- Well... Let's look at the layout of the mansion. Originally, I was going to suggest the idea that the gunshot that came out of the Entertainment room is completely unrelated to the argument and scream. But it doesn't work -- no matter where I put it, one of the three parties that heard the argument AND the scream had no reason not to heard the gunshot if we take their range and vice-versa. The only way I see this as being possible is... if Lira and Ost are both lying. Because then, Zurich didn't hear the argument/scream because the walls of individual bedrooms are thicker than usual, or something. Hu didn't hear the gunshot because he's... iunno, old and in the Foyer, but heard the scream because of his Chinese superpowers, thus leaving the those two to hear it all.
It makes perfect sense.
- Gah, okay, thinking about it seriously... Maybe we should treat all three elements as individual 'incidents', so to speak, like I originally thought. First, let's get Hu out of the way - why didn't he hear a gunshot? Well, what if what they all heard wasn't actually a gunshot, but something that came off as one due to their short distance from the entertainment room? Hu, who was in the foyer, just didn't hear it. This raises the question of why Lira and Ost didn't hear this... thing come off. I can't claim that their walls were soundproof or something because they apparently heard the argument. ...Then again, what if the sound for that specific room goes only through the ceiling? Then, the argument they heard... was something completely different? The actual walls are soundproof, but the ceiling to the room above... isn't? Zurich then only heard the gunshot... And the two (Tief and Princess)... lied by combining all the elements they were told by the other people in rush(???) for some epic misdirection?
It makes perfect sense.
- OKAY, let me try this again. Er... Assuming that Zurich's lying...
...Well no, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. ...Oh, actually it does! Assuming that the thing that went off/gunshot/whatever is something that could be only heard from the hallway, and the people arguing/screaming were Tief/Princess THEMSELVES... Hm... Still... It's a bit of a stretch... But assuming that what they heard wasn't actually a gunshot (or maybe there was no sound to begin with and Tief and Princess just improvised in this scenario, too?) due to the 1-hour gap since Leid decided to bail... Assuming he didn't intend to fake his death, of course.

Now, with that in mind, there could be an alternative explanation for this locked room... The issue being that I still can't get around the alibi problem (assuming there is one, anyway). It's simple (assuming it wasn't covered during the locked room investigation) - the latches on one door were never set until the room was actually broken into.

During the narrative, it's never really made clear (which makes sense, given how the room is dark and everything is chaotic), and if we solely rely on that, Leid is the only one that could confirm that the bolts on both doors were set prior to the break in. The summation is basically the same. The evidence about the door on the other hand, states: "Both bolts have been put in locked position. Both locks have been locked. The right door is now broken down, but it was possible to confirm these facts.", so it's probably safe to assume that the doors were indeed locked and bolted.

Well, again, assuming that Leid just... lied (huh) and the latch on the non-broken down door was set... I'd say it's still doable.

Hell, the alibi problem doesn't apply to her. She left the room unsupervised.

Quick thing here: if we trust her viewpoint, I'm not sure that really works. As I recall- I didn't note this- the kitchen was just a couple minutes from the room everybody else was in, and Ost can testify that she came in and left. I don't think she'd have enough time to have a detour, kill her friend, and set that whole room up.

True, but an unreliable narrator can just distort the sense of time and such. She could've done all of this and then been all like 'where are you, Mr. Ost, it's been so long'. It DID take him an awful long to set up the dinner, no...?

Eh, I wanted to type more- some hypotheses and such- but this post got crazy long.

[Bad Player]

rune pls

[kwando1313]

Spoiler : On kwando's post-spoilers, obv. :

Well, considering I'm thinking that Philo is Raven... And that Phiko is doing it for her daughter's sake (because dat prologue of this being a burial)

Hm. I forgot you had that hypothesis. It's slightly more feasible given that assumption, but that prologue honestly seemed really... non-Vainheimish to me. (When I read it, I read it as Raven essentially mocking the detective story subgenre; detective stories kind of being Vira- at least-'s deepest passion. Maybe her father is just dozens times more cynical than she is and has gotten disillusioned with the whole thing. That's a possibility.

My main question in this scenario, though, would be if Philo is behind... whatever this is... why did he decline the invitation and pass it on to Vira to choose a guest? And if Vira is in on it... why would she make that guest a hyper-competent defense attorney that has a deep grudge to settle with the JP corporation?

Spoiler : :

Well, I'm going purely off of a hunch here. The reason that Philo has become so... resigned, as of late, is because he is part of the JP corporation. However, he wants to break free, of course, so he comes up with a plan. He'll send his daughter to the party, and have his subordinates to the plan fake their deaths. Iunno. I'm not really thinking about it, because there's too much craziness for theorizing properly, for me, at least. xP

[Evo]

Spoiler : About the alibi :

Before Chandler's murder (if it is one), the following people were without an alibi for some time:
- Zachary between leaving the foyer and Vera entering the dining room
- Tiefenheim before entering the foyer (from upstairs, not outside)
- Ost for most of the time before they all gathered to read the letters
- Leid before entering the dining room (I assume he wasn't with Eral and Hind the whole time)
- Luna before entering the dining room
- Vera while going to the kitchen to look for Ost
Assuming there is no accomplice, that leaves one of them to be the killer, or a person from outside (Philo?), or Chandler faked his death.

Going through the suspects again, because I prefer going from whodunnit to howdunnit instead of the other way round:
Zachary: He wasn't gone for a while, and also he probably couldn't have known about Chandler because he arrived late - unless he is a member of JP who knew that Chandler was coming, but still, finding him with all the other guests around would have been hard. Not related to the alibi: He suggested to check Leid's pulse later. If it was the culprit's intention that they would find out he wasn't dead, that makes him suspicious. It the culprit didn't want that to be found out, it's the opposite. Like Lira said, he's kind of too suspicious to be the killer, so while he's not off my suspect list, he's not very high on it either.
Tiefenheim: He had a good opportunity to kill Chandler, I suppose, he knew Chandler would be attending the party and it also wouldn't be hard to come up with a motive for him. But it would be too obvious ... not that makes it impossible. I mean, Naota Feykneme was obvious too.
Ost: He had a lot of opportunities. He was alone most of the time, invited the guests, and had seen Chandler. (Also he has good sprites for a villain.) But that would be much to easy. I smell a red herring. Still, it's possible.
Leid: I assume he only met Liwei on the way to the dining room, so he would have had a good opportunity before that too. Also, I think it's very likely that he knew Chandler, with them both liking psychological evidence (and crazy hats). A guilty defendant would be a nice and not overused way to break the rules, but also has a high potential of being a lame solution, considering the investigators already came up with a good theory on how he could have done everything at the end of the investigation. I doubt it.
Vera: I doubt she could have committed the crime within that short timeframe. Theoretically her split personality could have taken over while she was going to the kitchen or leaving it without the player noticing anything, but if she took too long, the others would probably have noticed. Still doubt it.
Luna: I don't think Rune would make a cameo from another series the killer in a case related to the Judgement Seekers series. That would just be too random.
Philo: He would have had to avoid meeting anyone else, but other than that, he had a good opportunity and no alibi. I also said earlier why I think it could have been him. However, a person from outside wouldn't be the best solution, I suppose, especially when there are no clues pointing towards that. (Also, Rune said that the killer says something that makes it obvious that they're the killer to you in the prologue/investigation, but we never heard Philo talk.)
Chandler: I already talked about that earlier, but I noticed something else. Chandler had sworn an oath to someone, which is also why he can't kill Raven and Vampire. Who else has to do that? Members of the IBO, like Tiefenheim. So maybe he was some kind of butler to a member of JP? Considering that he probably knows Leid, maybe it was him, which would support the theory that both of them worked together to fake their deaths.

tl;dr: I have no idea at all and none of the suspects seems really fitting.

Spoiler : Something else :

Could anyone there be Exxer in disguise? He is a master of disguise after all.

[Tap]

Spoiler : Spoilers! :

This was a fantastic case, Rune... I don't think it's too early to call it, but already... I believe this will be your best case yet. As much as I love Turnabout of Courage, I was hooked to every moment in Burial. I don't tend to comment in game threads because I don't "play" games properly, instead I "read" them, abusing my moderator privileges to "read" the dialogue in the editor instead. Point-and-click games haven't been something that can keep my interest lately, precisely why my cases lately have been trying to re-define the genre. But Burial... As Chef Excellence would say, "An Excellent Case".

All of the characters are shaping up to be very intriguing. I did have one major criticism, and that was with the Logic Battles. I nearly gave up out out of frustration because it didn't seem there was anything different on each frame in the "cross-examination". Then I opened it up in the editor and saw that the "boxes" to highlight which was the focus of each "statement" in the "cross-examination" was set as a special picture. I have no choice in using Chrome while on my Windows, so the transparency bug really bit me annoyingly here! My best advice would be to set those images as character sprites rather than special images. You get the same effect, and that way you don't annoy your Chrome-playing members!

I have to say my favourite character so far is Hu Liwei. Why? Because you had the audacity to introduce a "Chinaman" into this story.
Oh man, he's a great character so far. Everything you expect of the typical "Chinaman", i.e. a Confucius reminiscence sage...

I'm really glad that you introduced him for a completely different reason. One of my main irritations with "Endless Nights" is that they never rule out with the Red Truth that Knox's 5th applies to the Solution. As the Umineko decalogue states, this redefines the 5th as "stereotypical minorities", and often portrayed in Western media for quite some time was that Japanese people were massively obsessed with America. Following that "shaky" logic, you could argue that Jessica or Battler could have been the culprits because this Truth wasn't ruled out! ...Or at least, that's how I saw it.

[kwando1313]

Spoiler : :

But Hu Liwei is Japanese. >_>

Also, most of our Endless Nights do rule out Knox's 5th as part of the solution. Because we don't want to delve into saying that a stereotype could not be the solution because... None of our characters /are/ stereotypes.

[Tap]

Spoiler : :

But Hu Liwei is Japanese. >_>
It says in-game that he's Chinese... He speaks Japanese in one scene, yes.
...And Rune knows/studies Japanese. I think he knows enough that the name "Hu Liwei" is clearly Chinese. For starters, the "Hu" sound is pronounced and romanised as "fu", and the "l" sound doesn't exist in the language...

Also, most of our Endless Nights do rule out Knox's 5th as part of the solution. Because we don't want to delve into saying that a stereotype could not be the solution because... None of our characters /are/ stereotypes.

Not in Red!

[kwando1313]

Spoiler : :

But Hu Liwei is Japanese. >_>
It says in-game that he's Chinese...

Also, most of our Endless Nights do rule out Knox's 5th as part of the solution. Because we don't want to delve into saying that a stereotype could not be the solution because... None of our characters /are/ stereotypes.

Not in Red!

We do state the Knox's 5th is ignored in red though. :/

[Tap]

We do state the Knox's 5th is ignored in red though. :/

Really? I only looked at one or two Endless Nights a long time ago, my recollection was that when it came to the 5th, the text was just normal, white text, and Phoenix or whoever said something like "Knox's 5th doesn't count because it wasn't featured in Umineko!" Also, updated my response to your "Japanese" comment.

[kwando1313]

Spoiler : :

Oh well, my bad. I haven't played Part 1 since... April? So, I'm a bit rusty on the details. xP

[NihilisticNinja]

Will be making this quick, since I'm at the airport. Just a couple things Evolina said I wanted to note. (Also, thanks for the alibi list, Evolina. I knew I was forgetting something!)

Spoiler : :

Going through the suspects again, because I prefer going from whodunnit to howdunnit instead of the other way round:

Tiefenheim: He had a good opportunity to kill Chandler, I suppose, he knew Chandler would be attending the party and it also wouldn't be hard to come up with a motive for him. But it would be too obvious ... not that makes it impossible. I mean, Naota Feykneme was obvious too.

Spoiler : :

The thing about Tief is that he has explicitly said that his obligations don't extend to the point of personally killing anybody. He certainly is happy to assist, should his master require it, but unless his master's life is strictly in danger, supposedly he won't commit murder. I guess we could go "lol he's lying", but... I honestly do believe that Tief is mostly there just to mess with Vera and Lira.

Spoiler : :

Vera: I doubt she could have committed the crime within that short timeframe. Theoretically her split personality could have taken over while she was going to the kitchen or leaving it without the player noticing anything, but if she took too long, the others would probably have noticed. Still doubt it.

Spoiler : :

The thing about Vera's weird maybe-DID-but-probably-not blackout thing is that the only time we've seen it, Vera was aware of it afterwards. So if that happened here, it's odd that she didn't say anything. Also, nobody when she returned commented on how late/slow she was. So... I doubt a trick with time is being played here.

Spoiler : :

Philo: He would have had to avoid meeting anyone else, but other than that, he had a good opportunity and no alibi. I also said earlier why I think it could have been him. However, a person from outside wouldn't be the best solution, I suppose, especially when there are no clues pointing towards that. (Also, Rune said that the killer says something that makes it obvious that they're the killer to you in the prologue/investigation, but we never heard Philo talk.)

Spoiler : :

Hm. I see a few problems with Philo: You have- how did he get out of the room, why did he not accept the invitation if he's just going to come anyway, how did he get into the mansion with nobody noticing, etc. Just, to me, it being Philo would kind of be a big cheat, unless there are massive clues coming up that suggest it.

Oh, and what you're thinking of is when Vera asks about Raven and Vampire's identities, Tief goes "Well, EVERYBODY knows who Raven is! I mean, it's the most obvious thing ever! It's Vampire that we're keeping secret." It's worth noting that Raven doesn't necessarily = killer, and that Tief is probably just screwing with Vera's head. I mean, "screwing with Vera's head" is a recurring theme in this game.

Spoiler : :

Chandler: I already talked about that earlier, but I noticed something else. Chandler had sworn an oath to someone, which is also why he can't kill Raven and Vampire. Who else has to do that? Members of the IBO, like Tiefenheim. So maybe he was some kind of butler to a member of JP? Considering that he probably knows Leid, maybe it was him, which would support the theory that both of them worked together to fake their deaths.

Spoiler : :

Hm. That'd be pretty odd, since according to Vera, he already has a job as a history teacher (I guess she could have been lying to Lira, but I'm not sure why she would). And it makes that whole "the JP took everything from me" aspect make a lot less sense. It's still workable I suppose, but it feels like it's workable in such an abstract way that it kind of becomes meaningless. Or I guess you could say that both his supposed job and his supposed grudge are all an elaborate ruse, but... eh.

That said, we do get a reiteration of limits on Chandler's ability to act in the Vera-Dream-Sequence-Thing at the end, more or less. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is some significance there.

Spoiler : Something else :

Could anyone there be Exxer in disguise? He is a master of disguise after all.

Spoiler : :

Well... yeah, I suppose. He could really be anyone. Heck, Kuter Exxer could have killed Vera and the internal monologues are simply the best exercise in performance art known to man.

Well... was a bit less quick than I expected. Oh well.

[Blackrune]

rune pls

But it's a secretttt

Spoiler : @kwando :

Hu Liwei isn't Japanese. He only tried it because Vera looked Japanese and he knows quite a few languages. ...I don't think I'd dare try to make him say something in actual Chinese. The chances of me screwing that up in some hilarious way are just too high... for some reason that also makes it tempting though.

Spoiler : Spoilers! :

This was a fantastic case, Rune... I don't think it's too early to call it, but already... I believe this will be your best case yet. As much as I love Turnabout of Courage, I was hooked to every moment in Burial. I don't tend to comment in game threads because I don't "play" games properly, instead I "read" them, abusing my moderator privileges to "read" the dialogue in the editor instead. Point-and-click games haven't been something that can keep my interest lately, precisely why my cases lately have been trying to re-define the genre. But Burial... As Chef Excellence would say, "An Excellent Case".
Thank you very much. If this can keep you hooked even if you're only "reading", I must have done something right.

All of the characters are shaping up to be very intriguing. I did have one major criticism, and that was with the Logic Battles. I nearly gave up out out of frustration because it didn't seem there was anything different on each frame in the "cross-examination". Then I opened it up in the editor and saw that the "boxes" to highlight which was the focus of each "statement" in the "cross-examination" was set as a special picture. I have no choice in using Chrome while on my Windows, so the transparency bug really bit me annoyingly here! My best advice would be to set those images as character sprites rather than special images. You get the same effect, and that way you don't annoy your Chrome-playing members!
Fair enough. I set them as special sprites because that way I didn't have to manually hide them each time something is pressed. The compatibility thing never occured to me.

I have to say my favourite character so far is Hu Liwei. Why? Because you had the audacity to introduce a "Chinaman" into this story.
Oh man, he's a great character so far. Everything you expect of the typical "Chinaman", i.e. a Confucius reminiscence sage...

I'm really glad that you introduced him for a completely different reason. One of my main irritations with "Endless Nights" is that they never rule out with the Red Truth that Knox's 5th applies to the Solution. As the Umineko decalogue states, this redefines the 5th as "stereotypical minorities", and often portrayed in Western media for quite some time was that Japanese people were massively obsessed with America. Following that "shaky" logic, you could argue that Jessica or Battler could have been the culprits because this Truth wasn't ruled out! ...Or at least, that's how I saw it.
Well, while I never had the problem with the decalogue uses, I'm glad you ended up liking him.