[T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout ○

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NihilisticNinja
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Evolina, thanks so much for copy-pasting this- that makes actually taking a look at this endlessly easier. Anyway; you're probably right that there IS unexplored meaning here.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
Vera: Mr. van Chandler... Why did you have to die?
???: ...An excellent question.
???: W-What?
Joseph (?): ...
???: I-Impossible!
Joseph (?): Long time no see.
How have you been?
???: Y-You!
How can you possibly still be alive?
Joseph (?): A major oversight.
You should have examined that corpse when you got the chance.
???: ...
???: I see what’s going on here.
So that has happened.
???: In that case, you can no longer harm me. Give up.
Joseph (?): You think I’m out of cards?
Maybe you should just stick to chess.
Joseph (?): From my experiences chess players are quite appropiate company for you.
???: What are you trying to do?
You’ve lost.
Joseph (?): A shame, really...
Suppose I can’t fool the raven.
Joseph (?): I don’t give a damn!
Screw your games.
Screw your mystery.
Joseph (?): Maybe I can’t get to you anymore... whatever...
Joseph (?): I can still mess up your final little plan and piss you off as much as possible. I’ll take what I
can get.
???: Y-You... think logically!
There’s nothing you can do.
Joseph (?): Ah, don’t forget my final trump card.
Joseph (?): Psychologically speaking, chances are not bad our favorite murderer won’t survive the
Night.
???: There’s no way you’d go that far! You’re not exactly better if you do that!
Joseph (?): ...do you seriously think I CARE at this point? Remember what you did?
Joseph (?): As long as we‘re going insane we may as well go the whole way.
Joseph (?): A mere shred of sanity is of no value!
???: You’ve lost it.
Pathetic.
Joseph (?): I’ll get you. For a final wish, I’d want you to be able to hear my laughter from hell.
Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.
???: ...I don’t think so.
Joseph (?):
???: You are bound by the laws of purity. Even now, you cannot go against your oath.
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Joseph (?): What kind of joke is this?
I don’t give a damn about your ‘perfect’ mystery anymore.
Joseph (?): It’s already stained. The rules have been violated.
Joseph (?): Why should I adhere to rules you have already broken?
???: ...What?
Joseph (?): ...I get it. We both have no clue what went wrong. Perfect.
Joseph (?): Don’t feign too much ignorance though. I know you’re cheating your way around the
board too.
Joseph (?): With that out of the way, let’s have a chat about the matter at hand, shall we?
Joseph (?): There’s something that I simply HAVE to adress here...
???: ...Checkmate.
Joseph (?): ...What now?
Joseph (?):
???: Even if you’re not bound by the oath, you’re still bound by THEIR restrictions.
Joseph (?): ...This is how it works, huh? This resctriction doesn’t even make sense for them.
???: It does. They don’t actually want to let you go, after all.
Joseph (?): ...Right. Give up on the truth for the sake of a higher truth, or something?
???: There’s nothing left you can do. Just leave.
Joseph (?): Oh dear.
Is that it?
Joseph (?): I suppose it means more work for my trump card. Let’s start with that then.
???: It’s people like you that are hard to understand. Why don’t you give up when there’s clearly no
hope?
Joseph (?): ...You still have a lot to learn about human logic, my beloved friend.
Joseph (?): Well then, my dear trump card. Shall we begin?
Joseph (?): Sadly I am forbidden from telling you any tales of relevance.
Joseph (?): However, I will still attempt to guide you... by asking the right questions.
Joseph (?): You have done well. Better than me. It wasn’t wrong to entrust this to you.
Joseph (?): Will you be able to exact revenge in my stead? I suppose that’s what I’m hoping for the
most.
Joseph (?): Don’t worry too much about getting these questions right at this point.
Joseph (?): See them as guidelines for your reasoning. Find the right answers for this corrupted
mystery.
Joseph (?): Use whatever method of reasoning you deem appropiate. I’m sure you can reach the... a
truth.
Joseph (?): Question one:
Am I really Joseph F. X. van Chandler?
Joseph (?): Is Joseph F. X. van Chandler dead or alive?
Joseph (?): So far so good...
???: You do realize you’re playing right into our hands with this?
Joseph (?): That depends on the climax of the show, wouldn’t you agree? We still have a lot of time.
Joseph (?): What about the crime scene?
What actually happened to him there?
If you pick murder: {Joseph (?): In that case, why wasn’t it Mr. Ost who was murdered?
Joseph (?): Is the locked room trick you came up with actually what the murderer used?
Joseph (?): Heh... can you actually disprove it?}
If you pick suicide: {Joseph (?): Can you think of a reason why he might have committed suicide?
Joseph (?): Aside from the psychological take, is there any evidence suggesting suicide?}
If you pick fake death: Joseph (?): Can you think of any reason for him to fake his death?
If you pick accident: Joseph (?): Has there been anything suggesting an accident?
Joseph (?): Keep thinking.
Joseph (?): Mr. Leid is suspected due to circumstantial evidence. A horrible approach to crimes.
Joseph (?): What do you think?
Did he actually try to fake his death?
Joseph (?): Then what happened?
???: You’re just being desperate.
Joseph (?): Is there a murderer in this building?
If you pick no: Joseph (?): Maybe there’s a relevant murderer outside this building though?
Joseph (?): Very well.
Who is it?
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): That will have to do for now.
???: It was entertaining, watching this fool’s struggle.
Joseph (?): I’ve merely set some more gears into motion.
Joseph (?): My revenge will be executed exactly as scheduled.
???: You know it won’t happen.
Joseph (?): Soon, you will turn from the hunter into the hunted.
Joseph (?): It might be even more appropiate than a direct death. A little burning before the end.
Joseph (?): This is the end for you...
Joseph (?): There is no future for you...
Joseph (?): ...Nevermore.


What I noticed is that he implied she was Raven and that he wants to take revenge on her. If that really is Joseph. It could be him, or someone dressing up as him, or Vera's imagination, or perhaps they're communicating via the Judgement Seekers' objects' telepathy. I doubt these were explained in the beginning for no reason. Could he actually have been stabbed with the dagger instead of an arrow...?
Anyway there are many things hidden in this scene.
To begin, we can try a more literal approach:
Spoiler : :
Well, I doubt that Joseph is actually talking to Vera here. This scene is a lot more muddled than the other scenes that took place from Raven's perspective- primarily because of the Vera dialogue right before it. It's that and Joseph seeming to reply to that statement that creates the issue. But the way that we shift from "Vera" to "???" does indeed make it seem like we're now channeling the thoughts of Raven. And like in the previous scenes where Raven monologues, Vera is simply absent, and is viewing this whole scene from within Raven's POV/head.

Judgment Seekers' telepathy is an excellent idea. However, regarding the dagger, I'm not sure how it would have gotten to the mansion, unfortunately; Vera, after all, stated that she got rid of it in Britain. Unless we think she's lying to Chandler there... but why would she? And if she did, who could have picked it up and used it? As for it being the murder weapon: it's possible I suppose, but I'm skeptical. Even in darkness, it feels like there's a big difference between a dagger- even if it was an extremely thin one- and crossbow bolt; Lira or Vera or somebody else would have noticed that something was off.

And without the dagger, Chandler's... interesting appearance doesn't seem to make sense. If it were just, say, a cloaked figure with pale skin I could handwave it, but with the glowing eyes and such, the scene just... seems to really break reality. Which makes me thinking we probably shouldn't be trying to look at it from the perspective "how did this happen in the narrative", because I'm skeptical that it did.

Honestly, I'm tempted to think that this needs to be approached carefully. From a pure, objective, narrative perspective? It's probably just Vera having a nightmare, perhaps blended together with her weird telepathic link to Raven that may or may not actually be a thing. I don't know that we can take any clues from it looking at it from that angle, though I certainly agree with attempts to try. But I don't doubt that Blackrune has added a good deal of foreshadowing and clues in here, if we look for them.

I'm not going to comment on the 4th wall stuff; I doubt that'll lead us anywhere.

So we have lines like this:


How can you possibly still be alive?
Joseph (?): A major oversight.
You should have examined that corpse when you got the chance.


Now, I can see two meanings to this. I could see a more literal, Blackrune out-and-out hinting at us: "They didn't look at the corpse closely enough guys! Joseph is actually alive!" angle, or I could see a vaguer clue; perhaps relating to who actually saw the body and who didn't? It is worth noting that Valerie just kind of disappears the moment they discover the corpse. Aside from that, the people that really took a look at the body: Zachary, Vera, Lira, William, Than. Under this second interpretation, somebody aside from them would be Raven. I prefer the first though- it's simpler.


Joseph (?): You think I’m out of cards?
Maybe you should just stick to chess.
Joseph (?): From my experiences chess players are quite appropiate company for you.


This line I find especially interesting because... it's so random. It doesn't really seem to MEAN much of anything, except maybe a comparison to Raven as a chessmaster. If we're plumbing for additional meaning... the combination of a gambling metaphor and chess could be a reference to Valerie; but not saying that Raven is Valerie DIRECTLY. If anything, it seems to be suggesting a close connection to Valerie- which would actually kind of point to Ost.

Valerie and Ost have kind of an interesting relationship, in that Valerie merely says that they got "...acquianted in some way", and reacts violently should you present Ost's profile. Yet, they MUST be on speaking terms to some degree or... why would he invite her at all? Ost also dodges the question when more or less asked why he invited Valerie. So this could be pointing towards that connection; if not saying that Ost is Raven, then saying that there is more there. This may be me reading a bit too much into it, though.
.

Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.
???: ...I don’t think so.
Joseph (?):
???: You are bound by the laws of purity. Even now, you cannot go against your oath.
...
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Joseph (?): What kind of joke is this?
I don’t give a damn about your ‘perfect’ mystery anymore.
Joseph (?): It’s already stained. The rules have been violated.


To me, this seems less like it's talking about some kind of general oath, and more a specific agreement regarding this particular "perfect mystery". That, in essence, there was an agreement between Joseph and Raven about this mystery and his role in it... except something went wrong along the way, which has caused Joseph to turn on said agreement. Which would imply that Joseph was complicit in... whatever this is at first, but is now actively acting against it.


???: Even if you’re not bound by the oath, you’re still bound by THEIR restrictions.
Joseph (?): ...This is how it works, huh? This resctriction doesn’t even make sense for them.
???: It does. They don’t actually want to let you go, after all.
Joseph (?): ...Right. Give up on the truth for the sake of a higher truth, or something?
???: There’s nothing left you can do. Just leave.


... I really don't get this part; probably because I don't get the context. There's some other party, whose restrictions prohibit Joseph from doing certain things- perhaps from a more literal perspective, from telling everybody/Vera what's going on? Or perhaps this has some connection to the Justice Seekers? That seems to be what Joseph is alluding to in that final line.

So... I must admit, I can't find anything particularly definitive in here, from a less literal perspective. There was probably an agreement between Joseph and Raven related to this "perfect mystery", and because some rule got broken or something went wrong, now everything is chaotic and Joseph is starting to run interference on Raven's plans, or at least attempting to. That's more what I gathered from it.

Of course, perhaps you are supposed to read it more literally. Or perhaps it's all just noise. And even if this sort of reading is accurate, I'm sure there's a couple important passages I'm just not catching, because I'm looking at them from the wrong angle. It's annoying with passages like these, because it can be crazy hard to tell what exactly the writer wants you to pick up from it.
"With good friends by your side, anything is possible. If you really care for each other, it makes everyone stronger! Then you'll have the will to succeed! The world is filled with painful things, it's sad sometimes, and you won't be able to handle it by yourself. But just know: If there's someone that you love, you'll stay on the right path. And you won't ever give in! As long as you keep that person in your heart, you'll keep getting back up. Understand? That's why a Hero never loses!"
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Evo »

NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well, I doubt that Joseph is actually talking to Vera here. This scene is a lot more muddled than the other scenes that took place from Raven's perspective- primarily because of the Vera dialogue right before it. It's that and Joseph seeming to reply to that statement that creates the issue. But the way that we shift from "Vera" to "???" does indeed make it seem like we're now channeling the thoughts of Raven. And like in the previous scenes where Raven monologues, Vera is simply absent, and is viewing this whole scene from within Raven's POV/head.
Spoiler : :
You're right. As Joseph called the POV person Raven and used their favorite word nevermore, it's probably Raven like in those other monologues. As these monologues are always when Vera is absent, it could be a nightmare she has or her split personality taking over, but it could also just be that Rune decided to switch to Raven's POV while Vera is absent because it was a fitting point to do so without confusing the reader too much.

NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
Judgment Seekers' telepathy is an excellent idea. However, regarding the dagger, I'm not sure how it would have gotten to the mansion, unfortunately; Vera, after all, stated that she got rid of it in Britain. Unless we think she's lying to Chandler there... but why would she? And if she did, who could have picked it up and used it? As for it being the murder weapon: it's possible I suppose, but I'm skeptical. Even in darkness, it feels like there's a big difference between a dagger- even if it was an extremely thin one- and crossbow bolt; Lira or Vera or somebody else would have noticed that something was off.
Spoiler : :
Her British friend could have brought it to the mansion. And Chandler could have been stabbed twice, once with the dagger and once with the bolt, which would also explain the amount of blood.
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
And without the dagger, Chandler's... interesting appearance doesn't seem to make sense. If it were just, say, a cloaked figure with pale skin I could handwave it, but with the glowing eyes and such, the scene just... seems to really break reality. Which makes me thinking we probably shouldn't be trying to look at it from the perspective "how did this happen in the narrative", because I'm skeptical that it did.

Honestly, I'm tempted to think that this needs to be approached carefully. From a pure, objective, narrative perspective? It's probably just Vera having a nightmare, perhaps blended together with her weird telepathic link to Raven that may or may not actually be a thing. I don't know that we can take any clues from it looking at it from that angle, though I certainly agree with attempts to try. But I don't doubt that Blackrune has added a good deal of foreshadowing and clues in here, if we look for them.
Spoiler : :
I doubt Raven was really seeing Chandler with glowing eyes here. That's probably just symbolic or something like that. Whether Chandler was really talking to Raven in some way here or it was just Raven's/Vera's imagination, I don't know.
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
How can you possibly still be alive?
Joseph (?): A major oversight.
You should have examined that corpse when you got the chance.


Now, I can see two meanings to this. I could see a more literal, Blackrune out-and-out hinting at us: "They didn't look at the corpse closely enough guys! Joseph is actually alive!" angle, or I could see a vaguer clue; perhaps relating to who actually saw the body and who didn't? It is worth noting that Valerie just kind of disappears the moment they discover the corpse. Aside from that, the people that really took a look at the body: Zachary, Vera, Lira, William, Than. Under this second interpretation, somebody aside from them would be Raven. I prefer the first though- it's simpler.
Spoiler : :
Your interpretations sound good, but I also see a third way to interpret it: "You should have checked the pulse when you got the chance, but now you don't have the chance anymore." The only ones who really had a chance were Zachary, Vera, Lira, Ost and Leid who took a look at the body. But that chance is now gone, either because Chandler's body disappeared while they were busy with Leid's fake death, or because since he went to call the police Leid never had an opportunity to go to the crime scene again.
Spoiler : :
Joseph (?): You think I’m out of cards?
Maybe you should just stick to chess.
Joseph (?): From my experiences chess players are quite appropiate company for you.


This line I find especially interesting because... it's so random. It doesn't really seem to MEAN much of anything, except maybe a comparison to Raven as a chessmaster. If we're plumbing for additional meaning... the combination of a gambling metaphor and chess could be a reference to Valerie; but not saying that Raven is Valerie DIRECTLY. If anything, it seems to be suggesting a close connection to Valerie- which would actually kind of point to Ost.

Valerie and Ost have kind of an interesting relationship, in that Valerie merely says that they got "...acquianted in some way", and reacts violently should you present Ost's profile. Yet, they MUST be on speaking terms to some degree or... why would he invite her at all? Ost also dodges the question when more or less asked why he invited Valerie. So this could be pointing towards that connection; if not saying that Ost is Raven, then saying that there is more there. This may be me reading a bit too much into it, though.
Spoiler : :
Interesting. So far chess has only been brought up when they were talking about the other Valerie Princess, the chess grandmaster. Well, maybe they're one and the same after all.
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.
???: ...I don’t think so.
Joseph (?):
???: You are bound by the laws of purity. Even now, you cannot go against your oath.
...
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Joseph (?): What kind of joke is this?
I don’t give a damn about your ‘perfect’ mystery anymore.
Joseph (?): It’s already stained. The rules have been violated.


To me, this seems less like it's talking about some kind of general oath, and more a specific agreement regarding this particular "perfect mystery". That, in essence, there was an agreement between Joseph and Raven about this mystery and his role in it... except something went wrong along the way, which has caused Joseph to turn on said agreement. Which would imply that Joseph was complicit in... whatever this is at first, but is now actively acting against it.
Spoiler : :
I agree.
I think the oath is related to the detective novel rules, as they show up on the screen when Raven mentions the rules. I can read some things like "There simply must be a corpse ..."
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
???: Even if you’re not bound by the oath, you’re still bound by THEIR restrictions.
Joseph (?): ...This is how it works, huh? This resctriction doesn’t even make sense for them.
???: It does. They don’t actually want to let you go, after all.
Joseph (?): ...Right. Give up on the truth for the sake of a higher truth, or something?
???: There’s nothing left you can do. Just leave.


... I really don't get this part; probably because I don't get the context. There's some other party, whose restrictions prohibit Joseph from doing certain things- perhaps from a more literal perspective, from telling everybody/Vera what's going on? Or perhaps this has some connection to the Justice Seekers? That seems to be what Joseph is alluding to in that final line.
Spoiler : :
If they are really using Judgement Seekers telepathy, it could be referring to not being able to lie during that.
However, "they" could also be the Vidocq Society:

Than: It’s true, I’ve helped solving several cold cases as a member of the Vidocq Society.
Vera: Vidocq Society?
Than: Haven’t you heard of them?
They’re a club formed to solve unexplained crimes.
Than: It mostly consists of professionals. You can only become a member via invitation.
Than: They’re named after Eugène François Vidocq, the possibly first known private investigator.
Than: Vidocq was the first to ever use criminal psychology as a method to solve crimes.
Than: The Vidocq Society does the same, aiding the authorities with their knowledge when asked.
Than: We’ve actually solved countless of year-old cases using this method.
Than: Our services are entirely free. We’re really only interested in truth and justice.
Than: Veritas Veritatum.
The truth of truths.
That’s our credo.
Vera: ...Assuming there is a superior truth...


Joseph could be referring to their "truth of truths" with that line too. Judging from the flashback where he was talking about criminal psychology with Vera, I assume he was a member of them as well.
Ideas on other parts of that scene:
Spoiler : :
Joseph (?): Long time no see.
How have you been?


That doesn't sound like he's talking to Vera, because they saw each other shortly before this, even if it was just via PC. Also, if Raven had killed Joseph, they would have met as well, I suppose.

???: How can you possibly still be alive?
Joseph (?): A major oversight.
You should have examined that corpse when you got the chance.
???: ...
???: I see what’s going on here.
So that has happened.
???: In that case, you can no longer harm me. Give up.
................
Joseph (?): I’ll get you. For a final wish, I’d want you to be able to hear my laughter from hell.
Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.


To me this sounds a bit like while Joseph is still alive at this moment, he won't be for very long.
Or maybe ... it has something to do with this:

Vera: Some powerful artifacts were in fact designed to consume and trap the soul of a victim of a
crime.
Joseph: That sounds... uncomfortable.
Vera: The souls constant yearning for justice would power the device while keeping them trapped.
Vera: And the only way to release them and have them rest at peace was to solve the crime in
question.


---

Joseph (?): Ah, don’t forget my final trump card.
Joseph (?): Psychologically speaking, chances are not bad our favorite murderer won’t survive the
Night.
................
Joseph (?): Well then, my dear trump card. Shall we begin?
Joseph (?): Sadly I am forbidden from telling you any tales of relevance.
Joseph (?): However, I will still attempt to guide you... by asking the right questions.
Joseph (?): You have done well. Better than me. It wasn’t wrong to entrust this to you.
Joseph (?): Will you be able to exact revenge in my stead? I suppose that’s what I’m hoping for the
most.
[Player answers questions]


I think with his "trump card" he is referring to Vera with her Chekhov's Gun. The "Night" is probably capitalized for a reason ...
He talks to his "trump card" differently than to Raven, and "???"'s comments during that time don't really fit, so maybe that scene actually happens between three people? Joseph, Vera/the player (who is only putting in answers) and Raven, who is commenting on this while watching.
/edit: While replaying that scene I've added some things to this.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Lind »

Spoiler : ¡DOS! :
I like what you've done with the map.

Courage. Teehee.

Damn, secret passages. Read my mind.

WHY IS THERE SO MUCH

"That makes no sense!" holy crap i'm dying

Oh dear I am apparently required to be a goddamned magician to do this

The idea of the Ace Attorney games is generally to use logic puzzles rather than take wild guesses at improbable scenarios relying solely on our own imagination. As such this section is extremely irritating as the possibilities to consider are completely endless.

A SHIRTTON OF READING THE SOURCE CODE LATER, I HAVE WORKED OUT HOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO THIS. NEVER MAKE ME DO THAT AGAIN, RUNE. THAT IS NEITHER GOOD GAMEPLAY NOR STORYTELLING.

uh what

caalm the fffk down please

CAST IN THE NAME OF GOD - YE NOT GUILTY

Rune, have you ever considered cutting the middleman of AAO out of the equation and just straight-up writing mystery novels? Because this case definitely seems more like the latter.

Oh hello there Doc Scratch, I have a disc for you.

I'm anxiously awaiting a jump scare.

I LEID

OK, Vera is the killer. You could not possibly have made that less obvious just now.

oh god another one

Holy crap. The means to progress was actually easy. Am I still playing the same game?

HOLYSONOFA

HE LEID TO US

WUBWUBWUBWUBWUBWUB

blah blah blah blah blah PLOT ALREADY

The 21th century, eh?

You know, seeing how I'm guessing Garth Eral is supposed to be a pun on General, why didn't you call him Gene Eral instead?

Oh great, someone else is going to die.

ANOTHER TRIP. WUNDERBAR.

Holy crap I HAVE THE POWER OF CHOICE

I'll go with Eral and Hind, since they're the characters I'd like to see more of.

That's not a jar, it's a door.

"Coincidence or fate?" uh how about neither

TIME TO TRIP BALLS AGAIN

ALWAYS CHECK THE FREAKING BODY YOU NONCE

Oh if that isn't the goofiest sprite I ever did see

oh my god typography how terrifying

what the fudgesicles

"very well. who is it?" oh god

I'm just going to type in Raven and see what happens.

Huh.


For what it was, not bad at all, in spite of some extremely goofy attempts at shock value. But as a puzzle game, a Phoenix Wright fanwork, and an Ace Attorney case involving two cases that converge at a later point, it fails horribly.

Honestly, in Zeta's shoes I'd probably have thrown the win to Turnabouts to Light.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by ZetaAzuel »

*Shrugs* can't please everyone.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by ventuswings »

Spoiler : SoC Investigation :
Whoa Danganronpa BGM. And you actually used bullets for the evidence portrait, awesome.

27 evidences for single room. Urghhhhhhhhh.

Okay, I have no idea but let's conclude the investigation and see if there are some hints. I'll scratch out Class 3 since she is "detective". Also indirect device probably wouldn't be accurate enough to pierce the heart directly so ruling out Class 1 too.

This locked room is hell.

Actually, okay, the movement of the table is bugging me. At the original location of the table, it should have blocked vision of the right keyhole from the victim I think? So perhaps the point of moving the bigger table to the left was to focus people's attention, so the culprit could manipulate that opportunity somehow? Grasping at straws here but let's try out hiding place on the moved table.

APPARENTLY NOT.

Okay, enough with theorizing. I'm just going to say the obvious and say culprit escaped through the door, and see what I can come up with a fly. Master key is easy, the second question was also phrased rather conveniently, and let's go for broke and propose taxidermy toolset. Yayyy I am absolutely sure there are other convoluted solutions available to troll Lira but at least I can save some of my precious time.

I'm pretty sure you are still going to die, Mr. Ost.

Huh. Okay. So maybe they will kill William, but as the very last. We're all screwed.

You know, threatening to kick us out isn't really that alarming when there are crazy killers going around pulling off And Then There Were None.

The second locked room and following events were... very bizzare. Don't know what to think of it. I actually went for the window first thinking it was sure to fail so not sure if there were some easter eggs I missed. Also I hope to see Detective Zachary Zurich more because he's amazing.

Who; only knowledge needed to bring perpetrator to the justice. In pragmatic view, it is also the choice that gives maximum knowledge for all possible cases. Knowing 'How' and 'Why' is barely useful when the cases can either have simple murder method or motivation, while knowing the culprit lets you start with half the puzzle solved.

Nobody is at fault. Wait, his card reading changed?

Did Leid just mention psyche-locks :maya:

Aww can't we choose to visit all of them. Lot of options regarding the nature of guilt here. I hope there aren't going to be lot of multiple endings or something, otherwise I hope there will be some convenient method of accessing them all (It's just my preference but I do not favour the recent trend of having lot of branching choices in the trial, which works on VN due to quick saving&loading and non-buggy skip function but not necessarily here).

I have no idea! Let's meta-game this thing and go with the most convoluted answers possible! Joseph is dead and you are Joseph! He also committed suicide but did not intend to fake his death! I'm also Vera has nothing to do with the murders currently illustrated. At least my response ensures that at least half of my guesses will be correct. 8)
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Lind »

ZetaAzuel wrote:*Shrugs* can't please everyone.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I liked it. But it's sort of like walking into an Indian restaurant and being handed a burger. Like, OK, a burger is fine too, but I ordered a f***ing tikka, thank you very much.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by kwando1313 »

But that's the thing. We aren't looking for the best AA-style case. We're looking for what is the best/most fun thing to play, something that does break the boundaries and yet still works within the framework of AAO.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Lind »

kwando1313 wrote:But that's the thing. We aren't looking for the best AA-style case. We're looking for what is the best/most fun thing to play, something that does break the boundaries and yet still works within the framework of AAO.
Well technically we're looking for the best example of two cases merging into one. Which this definitely isn't. It's not even an example of it, unless there are as-yet unreleased parts.

Also, the keyword there is "play", which this doesn't do well at all even if we're not comparing it to Ace Attorney.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by GuardianDreamer »

There were clearly examples of multiple past cases mentioned in this trial that had to do with this one. While not fitting the typical expectation of "case convergence" it still fits. And I think it does that well.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Lind »

GuardianDreamer wrote:There were clearly examples of multiple past cases mentioned in this trial that had to do with this one. While not fitting the typical expectation of "case convergence" it still fits. And I think it does that well.
"you have to have 2 or more cases or mysteries that at first glance may not have anything to do with each other but over the course of time show that they are somehow related to each other and then eventually converge to create a great solution of some kind."

Not the same thing as just having another case relevant to it.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by kwando1313 »

As a Rune case fan, this was a delicious blend of all the case threads from his prior cases being brought to a head. Also, you can totally compare non-AA games with AA games in a qualitative manner.
Spoiler : :
Also, there is most definitely convergences with the murders, JP, as well as Vera.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Before hyper-long post, Rune, a question:
Spoiler : :
Can you tell me the name of the song that plays during the first few sections of your exchange with Vira during the first locked room? As in, between the door and Vira explaining the nature of the bolts. 'cause yeah. Great song. Yes, I know you're going to post the music later, but I'm CURIOUS DARN IT. D:<
Okay, didn't realize that Evolina had responded to me. So... let's do that. Spoiler text wall gogo.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
You're right. As Joseph called the POV person Raven and used their favorite word nevermore, it's probably Raven like in those other monologues. As these monologues are always when Vera is absent, it could be a nightmare she has or her split personality taking over, but it could also just be that Rune decided to switch to Raven's POV while Vera is absent because it was a fitting point to do so without confusing the reader too much.
Spoiler : :
Hm. I've grown really skeptical of the whole Vera DID hypothesis; I think she's probably just kind of unstable. (Besides, the more I talk about her, the more I like her. I don't WANT her to turn out to be teh evilz. :()

I'm really not positive what to make of the whole "seeming to have a link to Raven mentally" though (I can see her lying to Chandler about keeping the dagger, but I don't get why she WOULD). The one that happens when Vira dozes off in the mansion could just be deceptive framing, but that first nightmare is really... weird. (Though that flashes of Nevermore pver and over in particular isn't something Raven would be THINKING. So if they do have a mental link, Raven and Vera's subconscious seem to be kind of mixing together into one huge mess.) This last one is also strange. (I'm pretty sure a nightmare is all this is). I can't help but wonder if she doesn't subconsciously have fears that she IS Raven somehow, and the nightmares are a result of that. Yes, I know it's basically impossible FOR her to be Raven... but maybe she doesn't for some reason?

And that second thing: Well... except he kind of deliberately confuses the issue by having a line by Vera, and then having Chandler seem to respond to that line, and THEN shift to him talking to Raven. If you're not trying to confuse the issue... why have that line by Vera in there at all? It doesn't really serve any other purpose.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
Her British friend could have brought it to the mansion. And Chandler could have been stabbed twice, once with the dagger and once with the bolt, which would also explain the amount of blood.
Spoiler : :
Her British friend COULD have brought it, granted. But why? Hm. It's annoying because I actually agree with you: Rune wouldn't have that whole exposition dump for no reason. But it just seems to require Vera to spontaneously lie in order for this to make sense.

Ah, it doesn't really explain the blood though. Even if the dagger was removed (I forget how exactly it works- I didn't take a note on it), it shouldn't be that big a wound, unless it's a REALLY thick dagger- in which case I'd expect they would have noticed it. And if you don't remove it, that doesn't explain the blood- in order to bleed, the blood needs an exit point, after all. Which is what makes the blood so curious.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
I doubt Raven was really seeing Chandler with glowing eyes here. That's probably just symbolic or something like that. Whether Chandler was really talking to Raven in some way here or it was just Raven's/Vera's imagination, I don't know.
Spoiler : :
Oh, I agree that Raven(?) probably wasn't; the thing is that I'm not sure how much we CAN take from this literally the more we look at it. If we take Chandler's appearance as imaginary/exaggerated, and that last bit kind of clearly didn't happen... it's kind of easier to say that none of it happened and Vera's just having a very, very weird dream.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
Your interpretations sound good, but I also see a third way to interpret it: "You should have checked the pulse when you got the chance, but now you don't have the chance anymore." The only ones who really had a chance were Zachary, Vera, Lira, Ost and Leid who took a look at the body. But that chance is now gone, either because Chandler's body disappeared while they were busy with Leid's fake death, or because since he went to call the police Leid never had an opportunity to go to the crime scene again.
Spoiler : :
A good point- you can apply it the opposite way as well. Kind of the annoying part of trying to interpret things like this- you can often use it to argue both sides.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
Interesting. So far chess has only been brought up when they were talking about the other Valerie Princess, the chess grandmaster. Well, maybe they're one and the same after all.
Spoiler : :
Hm. I was taking it more as Zombie Joseph kind of teasing him in a rather subtle way, but she COULD be Valerie Princess. Skeptical though. I'm really tempted to argue that if she's not who she actually say she is... that's just Raven using a pseudonym. The name of a chessmaster does kind of suit Raven, and it would actually kind of explain Tief's teasing about how obvious Raven is (if that wasn't a solipsistic illusion of mine)- "Her NAME even gives you a hint that she's Raven!" The problem with that interpretation is that she DOES seem to work for Hu. Now, that whole "worker for Hu" occupation could be a cover- one of Raven's crimes DID occur in the building of one of Hu's companies...- but that feels like a stretch.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
If they are really using Judgement Seekers telepathy, it could be referring to not being able to lie during that.
Spoiler : :
Possible, but that doesn't seem to make sense, since the context doesn't sound like Joseph was about to lie: more like he was about to say something incredibly important, and then this "rule" stopped him. I mean, the previous line was "There’s something that I simply HAVE to adress here..."
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
However, "they" could also be the Vidocq Society:

Joseph could be referring to their "truth of truths" with that line too. Judging from the flashback where he was talking about criminal psychology with Vera, I assume he was a member of them as well.
Spoiler : :
Hm. I like that idea; Joseph being a part of the society makes a good deal of sense. But... what rule could they be talking about?
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
That doesn't sound like he's talking to Vera, because they saw each other shortly before this, even if it was just via PC. Also, if Raven had killed Joseph, they would have met as well, I suppose.
Spoiler : :
It's worth noting that I do know people that use that phrase sarcastically/ironically. So I'm not sure we should take it to mean much. The "How've you been" bit just makes me think that Joseph is being snarky here. Well... he would be if this conversation is happening, of course.
Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :

To me this sounds a bit like while Joseph is still alive at this moment, he won't be for very long.

Spoiler : :
Well, one thing I do have to wonder about is, if we can't trust the VISUALS in this scene... can we really trust all the dialogue? I'm not sure I'd put it past Blackrune to screw with us there too. Maybe we should assume the best, though.

What makes that sequence really odd, particularly given that interpretation, is that Raven says "You CAN no longer harm me." If Joseph's still alive... why can't he harm him anymore, before dying? There would have to be SOMETHING stopping him. Not sure what though. Theoretically, I would presume it has something to do with that rule. Which, again... what on Earth would that rule be? It almost seems to be the antithesis of the rule of the Judgment Seekers- instead of being unable to lie, it makes the speaker unable to tell certain truths.

Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
Or maybe ... it has something to do with this:

Vera: Some powerful artifacts were in fact designed to consume and trap the soul of a victim of a
crime.
Joseph: That sounds... uncomfortable.
Vera: The souls constant yearning for justice would power the device while keeping them trapped.
Vera: And the only way to release them and have them rest at peace was to solve the crime in
question.

Spoiler : :
An interesting interpretation. Of course, to me that implies that Zombie Joseph wouldn't be able to have this conversation at all; his soul would be trapped in that weapon, after all. (Ignoring all the technical stuff here- when that weapon would be placed, etc.)

Evolina deLuna wrote:
Spoiler : :
Joseph (?): Ah, don’t forget my final trump card.
Joseph (?): Psychologically speaking, chances are not bad our favorite murderer won’t survive the
Night.
................
Joseph (?): Well then, my dear trump card. Shall we begin?
Joseph (?): Sadly I am forbidden from telling you any tales of relevance.
Joseph (?): However, I will still attempt to guide you... by asking the right questions.
Joseph (?): You have done well. Better than me. It wasn’t wrong to entrust this to you.
Joseph (?): Will you be able to exact revenge in my stead? I suppose that’s what I’m hoping for the
most.
I think with his "trump card" he is referring to Vera with her Chekhov's Gun. The "Night" is probably capitalized for a reason
[Player answers questions]

...

Spoiler : :
Oh, I completely agree. It fits perfectly with Raven's whole "You'll be just as bad as I am if you do that." bit too. If I were to guess why the "Night" was capitalized, it would be a hint to the reader. Or, it could just be the way Joseph said it- I sometimes put emphasis on the beginning of people's names so that the listener knows I'm not just referring to the word. Although... that seems to have one or two interesting implications. How does he KNOW that Vera is going to fire that gun? At Raven, for that matter?
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by Blackrune »

NihilisticNinja wrote:Before hyper-long post, Rune, a question:
Spoiler : :
Can you tell me the name of the song that plays during the first few sections of your exchange with Vira during the first locked room? As in, between the door and Vira explaining the nature of the bolts. 'cause yeah. Great song. Yes, I know you're going to post the music later, but I'm CURIOUS DARN IT. D:<
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Blackrune wrote:
NihilisticNinja wrote:Before hyper-long post, Rune, a question:
Spoiler : :
Can you tell me the name of the song that plays during the first few sections of your exchange with Vira during the first locked room? As in, between the door and Vira explaining the nature of the bolts. 'cause yeah. Great song. Yes, I know you're going to post the music later, but I'm CURIOUS DARN IT. D:<
Spoiler : :
Yeah, I meant escape. Thanks Rune.
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Re: [T][CE] Burial of the Turnabout ○

Post by kwando1313 »

OK. NN, Evo, and I did a bit of theorizing on the xat. And here is part of what we came up with. (I'm probably not going to explain it good detail, but whatevs.)
Spoiler : Theorizing :
Our Viewpoint
Really early on in the case, Vera has a conversation with the cab driver... In which the following scene is played:
Driver: Take this city, you can't admire its true beauty if you're right in the middle of it.
Driver: But if you drive far away and look from a distance, you can suddenly see an amazing sight.
Vera: ...That's a fascinating comparison, actually.
Driver: Hm, you like that kind of thing?
Vera: If it's thought-provoking, it's interesting.
Vera: (Looking at the city from a distance instead of being in it, to admire its full beauty...)


This here provides a clue... That we shouldn't probably be focusing only on specifics when trying to solve the case, but also to look at the big picture. But now... The theorizing.

What does DMTNT mean? What exactly are the restrictions placed?
Well, we'll start off with the easy one. DMTNT most likely means "Dead Men Tell No Tales". Why do we think this? Well, firstly, googling that gave me that acronym. But secondly, there are lines in the script which suggest that this is what that means:
Joseph (?): Well then, my dear trump card. Shall we begin?
Joseph (?): Sadly I am forbidden from telling you any tales of relevance.
Joseph (?): However, I will still attempt to guide you... by asking the right questions.


So, what does that imply to us? Well, firstly, it implies that most likely, Chandler's death was faked as well. The details of that currently don't really matter, but the important part is that it was faked. Secondly, this also tells us that the circumstances around the whole case are... fishy, to say the least.

But before ??? imposes that restriction on Joseph (?), we get a scene about the "Laws of Purity". Or, to be more specific...
Joseph (?): Well then, we don’t have all night. I might as well start by ruining this mystery of yours.
???: ...I don’t think so.
???: You are bound by the laws of purity. Even now, you cannot go against your oath.
Joseph (?): ...
Joseph (?): Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!
Joseph (?): What kind of joke is this? I don’t give a damn about your ‘perfect’ mystery anymore.
Joseph (?): It’s already stained. The rules have been violated.
Joseph (?): Why should I adhere to rules you have already broken?


At this time, the following image appears:
Image
All the text that appears on Joseph (?) are part of Dine's rules. Or to be more specific these of Dine's Rules.
Dine's 5th: The culprit must be determined by logical deductions — not by accident or coincidence or unmotivated confession.
Dine's 7th: There simply must be a corpse in a detective novel, and the deader the corpse the better.
Dine's 8th: The problem of the crime must he solved by strictly naturalistic means.
Dine's 9th: There must be but one detective — that is, but one protagonist of deduction — one deus ex machina.

So, what does this imply? It implies that one of these Dine rules were broken... And that for some reason, the entire set up for this mystery had to hinge on these. We (the reader) can already see instances of Dine being broken. Dine's 5th is broken by the discovery that Than Leid wasn't in fact dead. Dine's 7th is broken in Than Leid's "death" as well... Though, you can also argue that Chandler's "death" breaks it as well. Dine's 8th... I'm not quite so sure where that's broken yet, but we'll see. And Dine's 9th is broken because there seem to be multiple detectives on our case... With Lira, Vera, and even possibly Zurich being detectives.

But of course, the question then becomes... Who would even set up these restrictions in the first place? Our guess would be the most likely culprit, which would be JP Corporation.

But back to Dine. It's quite apparent we're looking at a deconstructed mystery. This, tied in with the prologue saying that this will be the "burial" of the mystery genre quite seems to agree with that. Of course, this all ties in with the identity of the person who is talking to Joseph(?) in the first place... Which we suspect is Raven due to Joseph's line in the script:
Joseph (?): A shame, really... Suppose I can’t fool the raven.

So what does this all tell us? Most likely, Joseph is alive. However, for the intents of the mystery, he is dead, and is unable to assist in the solving of the mystery. And, for some reason, he was bound by the rules of Dine earlier on.

Now, onto the other and slightly less significant theory.
Zurich knows more about JP than he lets on. (IE: Zurich Detective Theory)
In the scene where Zurich confronts Leid about faking his death, this bit of dialogue is said:
Than: Why do you have to interfere with my mission, "Mr. Zurich"? What caused this decision?
Zachary: I don’t like evil people. You’re clearly one, Mr. Grim Reaper.


So, what does this show us? Well, for starters... This is before we even learn that Reaper is a member of JP. So, how and why does Zachary know this information? The other curious thing to note here... Is that Leid calls Zachary "Mr. Zurich" in air quotes. Which implies to us that Zachary Zurich is possibly a pseudonym. In fact, earlier dialogue also suggests that Mr. Zurich could be a pseudonym.

Zachary: That's not a nice thing to do. I assure you I'm a perfectly dependable businessman.
Lira: Mr... Zachary Zurich.
Zachary: Speaking of, urgent business calls. See ya.
William: Hey wait, I've prepared a map...
William: Ugh, there he goes.
Lira: I've never heard of a prominent businessman called Zurich.
William: Still here? Well, uh... hes not that well-known I suppose.


This fact here, coupled with the fact that Than Leid also seems to recognize him points us to an interesting conclusion that Zurich is someone that is trying to also investigate JP.
But.... By and large, that's what we came up with. NN also has another post about a theory of ours... But I'll let him explain the details~
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