A New Kind of Turnabout
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- clcman
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
So, for example, I believe Enthalpy's Turnabout Proxy (which I admittedly haven't played) starts with a Court section but ends with an Investigation section that forces the villain into confession, no extra day of trial needed. Would something as simple as that inversion be acceptable (if obviously not the MOST theme-relevant possible)?
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What do REAL, NON-BRIBED people have to say about HTB!?
"This really changed the way I thought about Phoenix as a character. ...Wow." - Reecer6
"HTB! contains truths that might be hard to stomach, but had to be unveiled nonetheless." - Blackrune
"This deserves a best plot twist award." - Evo
"It changed my life, and it can change yours too. For the better, I mean." - Calvinball
"I will never look at Phoenix Wright the same way again" - PhoenixRises123
"omg best thing on aao" - AceAttorneyMaster111
DISCOVER THE TRUTH YOU NEVER KNEW YOU DIDN'T KNOW IN HTB! PROLOGUE AND PART 1, AVAILABLE NOW!!
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." -Isaac Asimov
"For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong." -H. L. Mencken
- OrderOfTheNick
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
RedeyesofDN wrote:So to make a further point, the type of structure your looking to avoid is, with regard to AA is [Day1: Trial (Verdict - END] or [Invest - Day1: Trial - Invest Day2: ...] and so on and so forth the models used commonly in the franchise. With variation should be coupled with a story that makes that variation make sense - with the story being graded more heavily then the variation itself? Would that be a proper understanding?
Well, actually, it isn't beneficial to think about it in terms of a "variation" of the existing case structure. The theme is really about telling the story differently than how AA cases do it. So the structure of entries needs to be different because having the same structure requires the story to follow specific patterns common to all (or at least most) AA cases. If you have a certain "case structure" in mind when creating the story, that will force you to write the story in specific ways to fit the structure.clcman wrote:So, for example, I believe Enthalpy's Turnabout Proxy (which I admittedly haven't played) starts with a Court section but ends with an Investigation section that forces the villain into confession, no extra day of trial needed. Would something as simple as that inversion be acceptable (if obviously not the MOST theme-relevant possible)?
Of course, there's nothing wrong with planning the flow of the case out beforehand, but for this competition, you can't use the standard case structures. Then again - thinking about avoiding the case structure by modifying it isn't the approach I'd recommend, as I said.
About Turnabout Proxy: The reason that simply having a trial, and then an investigation wouldn't work is because it would still be alternating between these two sections - which the rules I've written don't allow. If the case had MORE than the trial and investigation, that would be fine. But taking this as an example and working from there defeats the purpose of the theme - since the point is to make the structure fit the story, not the story fit the structure.
The best way to approach this theme would be to think about the story first, and the structure second. It's true that the rules only limit the structure of entries, but that's because the theme is "not following the AA case structure". I don't want to place limitations on the story of entries, but at the same time, I want all entrants to tell a story in a unique way not seen in the official games - thus the rules about case structure. I don't want to force the stories in a certain direction, I want to keep the stories from being formulaic.
So, for anyone who's confused: I said in the main post that you need to "Make a story with a structure different from Ace Attorney cases.", but it's just as valid to think of it as writing a story that can't be told with that structure.
(That's not a rule, just one of the ways to achieve theme relevance.)
I made Turnabout in the Two Towers, the winner of the Method in the Madness case competition.
- Enthalpy
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
OOTN, could you clarify what you mean by "structure"? That is ambiguous. As I've written about at length, Takumi and Yamazaki have very different trial structures in the sense of the defense's immediate goal (undercut the prosecution case vs. establish a defense theory) but both have the same trial structure in the sense of cross-examinations leading to questions leading to further points to investigate leading to more cross-examinations...
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
- OrderOfTheNick
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
Of course! I don't mean trial structure, I'm always referring the structure of the case itself. What I'm saying with "the structure of Ace Attorney cases" includes the order of investigations and trials. What entrants specifically need to avoid is making a case that fits that structure. I've also included a rule that states that cases with only alternating investigations and trials OR only a single trial, and nothing else aren't allowed - this basically rules out almost every case from the main series, which was exactly what I was going for. So basically, the point is to make a case that doesn't quite fit in an Ace Attorney game, to tell a story while not using this formula.Enthalpy wrote:OOTN, could you clarify what you mean by "structure"? That is ambiguous. As I've written about at length, Takumi and Yamazaki have very different trial structures in the sense of the defense's immediate goal (undercut the prosecution case vs. establish a defense theory) but both have the same trial structure in the sense of cross-examinations leading to questions leading to further points to investigate leading to more cross-examinations...
I made Turnabout in the Two Towers, the winner of the Method in the Madness case competition.
Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
Not saying I want to join yet, but to be sure I understand the theme, if you made a case where you have an investigation, but it ends up never going to trial because the defendant fires you as his attorney, would that count for theme relevance?
Not the case I want to make, just checking to see if I understand the requirements.
Not the case I want to make, just checking to see if I understand the requirements.
- OrderOfTheNick
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
I'd say that would meet the requirements.
I made Turnabout in the Two Towers, the winner of the Method in the Madness case competition.
- Ferdielance
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
Thinking about this, it seems to me that the most straightforward way to do this would be to have only an "investigation," but not structure it like an AA investigation (i.e., a series of event triggers unlocked by finding clues.) I suspect that if the prologue of Phantasmagoria of Betrayal were extended to game length, it would handily fit the comp's requirements - the scenes are mostly driven by plot progression, not Move/Talk/Examine/Present investigation.
Another way to do it would be to jump back and forth in time constantly as the plot demands, as in Two Sides of the Same Turnabout. I think that case would fit this comp's requirements?
I'm currently working on UCANT, and I don't think that a UCANT case would be comp-legal at this point (at least not without explicit mod approval), so I won't be in this one most likely.
Another way to do it would be to jump back and forth in time constantly as the plot demands, as in Two Sides of the Same Turnabout. I think that case would fit this comp's requirements?
I'm currently working on UCANT, and I don't think that a UCANT case would be comp-legal at this point (at least not without explicit mod approval), so I won't be in this one most likely.
"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
- OrderOfTheNick
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
Yes, both of those would absolutely fit the theme.Ferdielance wrote:Thinking about this, it seems to me that the most straightforward way to do this would be to have only an "investigation," but not structure it like an AA investigation (i.e., a series of event triggers unlocked by finding clues.) I suspect that if the prologue of Phantasmagoria of Betrayal were extended to game length, it would handily fit the comp's requirements - the scenes are mostly driven by plot progression, not Move/Talk/Examine/Present investigation.
Another way to do it would be to jump back and forth in time constantly as the plot demands, as in Two Sides of the Same Turnabout. I think that case would fit this comp's requirements?
I made Turnabout in the Two Towers, the winner of the Method in the Madness case competition.
- RedeyesofDN
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
We'll throw our proverbial hat in the ring. Count us in.
- Enthalpy
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
Good luck to all who enter this one!
That's much clearer, thank you!OrderOfTheNick wrote:Of course! I don't mean trial structure, I'm always referring the structure of the case itself. What I'm saying with "the structure of Ace Attorney cases" includes the order of investigations and trials. What entrants specifically need to avoid is making a case that fits that structure. I've also included a rule that states that cases with only alternating investigations and trials OR only a single trial, and nothing else aren't allowed - this basically rules out almost every case from the main series, which was exactly what I was going for. So basically, the point is to make a case that doesn't quite fit in an Ace Attorney game, to tell a story while not using this formula.
At present, there is no mod approval on this. Extending comp entry to non-AAO cases is a rule change that would need to be discussed before it goes into effect.Ferdielance wrote:I'm currently working on UCANT, and I don't think that a UCANT case would be comp-legal at this point (at least not without explicit mod approval), so I won't be in this one most likely.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
So...much as I hate to do this, life (read: college) is getting in the way right now, so I'll have to drop out. Best of luck to the remaining participants!
- OrderOfTheNick
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
I'll remove you then.
I made Turnabout in the Two Towers, the winner of the Method in the Madness case competition.
Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
I have to drop out too. Sorry!
- OrderOfTheNick
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
Sorry to hear that. I'll take you off the list.DWard14 wrote:I have to drop out too. Sorry!
I made Turnabout in the Two Towers, the winner of the Method in the Madness case competition.
- Mr. Insane
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Re: A New Kind of Turnabout
Anyone up for a collab? I can't do this on my own because of school, but maybe with multiple peeps I could.
Well, I don't consider myself crazy...
I prefer insane...
But that's Mr. Insane for you.
I prefer insane...
But that's Mr. Insane for you.