Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

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What is the best part of Umineko?

MUSIC DUH I MEAN COME ON!!!
12
22%
The characters. I mean, wow, they're just so... developed.
3
5%
Magic. Magic is awesome.
3
5%
MYSTERY, HECK YEAH DENY THAT WITCH'S BUTT TO THE ENDS OF PURGATORY!
6
11%
Trolling. I know I may sound masochistic when I say this but... yeah. I like being trolled.
1
2%
Theorizing and trying to figure out what the heck is going on.
6
11%
I can't pick. Can I choose everything?
15
27%
Umineko sucks. It's cliche. You should watch Twilight.
9
16%
 
Total votes: 55

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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by Nicky Boy »

TheDoctor wrote:
Spoiler : Response :
True, so given Virgillia's catbox explanation, the fantasy explanation for that scene is obvious, but how would you interpret that scene from an anti-fantasy viewpoint? Or, in other words, if EVA-Beatrice didn't kill them, who did?
Spoiler : Response :
Didn't Eva herself said it before she killed Battler? Beatrice checkmated EVA Beatrice. Battler returned his attention to the real word and said "You are the culprit" to Eva and she responded "It was time you found out" then BANG...

True, I was given chewed food to eat, but the human explanation was given in the end.
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by TheDoctor »

That moment when you realize...
Spoiler : Ep. 8 Spoilers :
Shannon can also be a boy's name. :shock:
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by Nicky Boy »

So, ep. 4 is over. This is, by far, the best episode so far.

Theory #1 still shows no signs of confirmation or denial, since it is relying on #2 to became true. As the last time, there are some signs regarding #7, but I can't say for certain. If I were to take Lambdadelta and Bernkastel seriously, #6 is confirmed, but I really don't trust much in this game, besides the red. Changing "outsider" to "someone other than his kids" would make #4 true. #8 really wasn't a theory, but still stays true. Based on Ange's definition of a witch, #9 comes true, as in she would help him deny fake withces.

New theories:
Spoiler : Theory #10 :
Regarding capital names [eg EVA(-Beatrice)], I believe this was made to distinguish the which self from the person self of someone. Not a big one, but still.
Spoiler : Theory #11 :
Erm... To tell you the truth, all this back and forth in time confused me...

But still, Ange is a paradox. She can summon the Seven sister of Purgatory and claim she is a witch, based on her definition of that, but still aimed to help Battler provide a human explanation for Beatrice's magic. She may be trying to bring her down as a fraud, but think: if Battler can explain Beatrice's summoning the Sisters and killing someone, would he also be marking his sister as well? I can't see a reason besides wanting him home, as she says. But that still involves having her brother deny her powers.
Spoiler : Theory #12 :
Silly one:

Lambda and Bern are a couple behind Beato's back.
Next up: Chiru! A whole new 4 episodes, which will (as described) shed light to the murders! Will Battler cruch Beatrice? Will Beatrice prove that she done all those murders... 4 times? I can't wait! Time to contact my cousin!!!
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by TheDoctor »

Ahh, you've finished episode 4? Have you any theories regarding...
Spoiler : :
Ushiromiya Battler's sin of six years ago?
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by Nicky Boy »

TheDoctor wrote:Ahh, you've finished episode 4? Have you any theories regarding...
Spoiler : :
Ushiromiya Battler's sin of six years ago?
Spoiler : Response :
To tell you the truth, no. I'm completely clueless about what he could have done, besides leaving.
Grr... my cousin's computer won't open so he can't send me the files :cry: . I'll have to wait a week or so...
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by kwando1313 »

it was all beato

prostrate to the witch
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by Nicky Boy »

Ep. 5 done. I must say, it was the most messed-up episode. I should have expected it from Lamda and Bern.

#1 and #2 are confirmed, I guess? Since Battler wasn't involved in #1 at all after that, it has been proved by this point. Achieving that title could count for #2, but it's debatable. I actually forgot a fact that disapproves of #4 last time. #6 is questionable since the "opponents" have changed for the 6th game. #7 is proven by their actions and the phrase "without love, the truth cannot been seen". All these "marshmallow baths" and stuff are gross and may confirm #12.

New theories:
Spoiler : Theory #13 :
I still don't know how the murders were committed, but I think there's some kind of conspiracy going on. Think: on this game, the trial was all about proving that Natsuhi did it. If we assume that Natsuhi is innocent, then framing is not impossible. The main character I think would do this is Eva. We've seen multiple instances of her anger towards Natsuhi, in all games. Or one of the servants could. Natsuhi keeps pressing all of them to do the best, and scolds them in the slightest of mistakes. But...
Genji is dedicated to the family,
Shannon can be clumpsy,
Kanon only develops anger if someone hurts someone he is close to,
Gohda is a scared-y cat, and
Kumasawa is old and lazy.
It is possible, but it might not work. Another option is that everyone except Krauss and Jessica conspired together, which would explain all the explanations everyone gave for their actions. If that is true...
Spoiler : Theory #14 :
...There's the possibility the "dead bodies" weren't dead at all, and everyone old the same story to frame Natsuhi. Now, you would say, something along the lines of "No-one would mistake the bodies" and "A misdiagnosis couldn't happen for anyone" were stated. But, remember Battler's fight with Dlanor in ???. Even though "No-one would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight", he saw Kinzo pointing towards the golden land intentionally, as he said in order to gain a subjective POV and avoid being regarded as a "detective" and avoid having to follow Knox's 7th. And since they weren't declared dead in red until the trial, it's safe to assume that they hid somewhere, but where killed. But the problem is Jessica. Why would she conspire against her mother? Well, maybe she wasn't told this was about conspiring her mother. That would explain it.
That's all I can think of for now. I can give you a theory for something, if you ask, but those are the main theories I have (or have an explanation to).
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by TheDoctor »

Regarding theory #13...
Spoiler : :
Based on personality, it would seem that Eva is the most likely culprit; however, how much do you trust that the personalities we've been presented so far aren't facades? For example, Kyrie seemed like the most levelheaded and rational member of the group in episode 1, but in episode 3, we got to see she was still pretty bitter over losing Rudolf to Asumu the first time around. Eva may be a bit... tricky to get along with, but there was that scene in episode 1 where she and Hideyoshi had brief talk in their room, and you got a glimpse at her softer side. And, of course, Beatrice was portrayed as a cruel, sadistic witch for the first two episodes, but then she seemed to start softening in episode 3. This was shown to supposedly have been an act, but her behavior in episode 4 would suggest not all of it was an act.
Spoiler : Another question :
This is just something you should be thinking about. Beatrice asked at the end of episode 4, "who am I?" Who is Beatrice? Why does she exist? What is the purpose of her game? Why was it necessary for Battler to be her opponent? Finally, if Ushiromiya Battler committed no sin against the Golden Witch, Beatrice, why does she care so much about getting him to remember?
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by Nicky Boy »

Spoiler : RE: #13 :
Well, that's true. So, in my opinion, the personalities at the time before the murders could be:
Kinzo: dead
Krauss: trying to keep his cool by being arrogant, desperate to prevent the others from going to the study
Natsuhi: trying to keep her cool, but is tormented with headaches, desperate to prevent the others from going to the study
Jessica: a rough-looking girl in love with a servant, gets upset easily, wants to murder the dastard who killed her parents
Eva: a rough-looking woman wanting to become the head, wants expose Krauss
Hideyoshi: a man who tries his best to ease the air when he thinks it's necessary, very serious under certain circumstances, wants to expose Krauss
George: a calm-looking man in love with a servant, will do anything to be with her
Rudolf: a man trying to have good ties with his son, smug, wants to expose Krauss
Kyrie: a levelheaded-looking woman, mostly the calmest, trying to have good ties with Battler
Battler: an easygoing-looking kid, doesn't really care about the inheritance problem, wants to reunite with his cousins
Rosa: a mother trying to have good ties with her daughter, messes that up sometimes, is afraid because she's the youngest sibling, wants to expose Krauss
Maria: a carefree child who changes personalities immediately when "magic" is the topic
Nanjo: a doctor who got involved into helping show Kinzo is still alive
Genji: a dedicated servant who helps show Kinzo is still alive
Shannon: an happy girl in love, is clumpsy when nervous
Kanon: an kinda unhappy boy, limited to his view of "furniture"
Gohda: a show-off, who is a scared-y cat
Kumasawa: on old woman who likes to tease people and slack off

Now, if we assume that everyone's personality (except Kinzo's) is false, then everyone could be the murderer. Heck, even Shannon or Maria could! Would you like to blame Maria, though? No-one would!
Spoiler : Theory #15, I guess :
I... actually avoided this on purpose. I mean, I'm terrible at coming up with a character's real personality (see above) and I really don't have answers to all questions. But here goes nothing:
Let's say that Beatrice is delusional. Her whole life has been a delusion. She needs to put an end to this, because she doesn't want to live like this anymore.
So 6 years ago, Battler made a sin, who probably got her into thinking that way. Also, 6 years ago Battler left the family. If we assume this is the reason, then Battler's leaving must have something to do with this.
Beatrice cannot leave Rokkenjima, and Battler stopped going there since 6 years ago until this year.
The murders started the year Battler would go to Rokkenjima once more.
So, Battler's coming has triggered the murders. The sin he committed was leaving the island and leaving Beatrice alone.
So, as I said, we assume that Beato's delusional. With that, we can say that someone of the relatives/servants can also be delusional.
Let's take every female for this theory. Natsuhi, Jessica, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Shannon and Kumasawa. Since "Beatrice" can't leave the island, Natsuhi, Jessica, Shannon and Kumasawa are left. Since "Beatrice" must have know Battler well, in order to know of his sin and wait six years, Jessica and Shannon are left. We also see some signs that "Beatrice" loves Battler so the only one left.... is.... Shannon... Wait, that actually makes sense, even if crazy!
6 years ago, Battler promised that he'll take Shannon away in a white horse. While, of course, everyone know it can't happen with a horse, maybe Shannon really believed that Battler made a real promise. But then, he never came, and she had to continue being a servant. Desperate to forgive this, she moved on. However, she had illusions and delusions regarding Beatrice (eg, the braking of the mirror). When Battler came, she found the chance to take revenge. As we saw, Battler was to die last (with the exception of ep. 3). She probably did all this in an attempt to make Battler remember, or at least understand her feelings.
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by TheDoctor »

Nicky Boy wrote:
Spoiler : Theory #15, I guess :
I... actually avoided this on purpose. I mean, I'm terrible at coming up with a character's real personality (see above) and I really don't have answers to all questions. But here goes nothing:
Let's say that Beatrice is delusional. Her whole life has been a delusion. She needs to put an end to this, because she doesn't want to live like this anymore.
So 6 years ago, Battler made a sin, who probably got her into thinking that way. Also, 6 years ago Battler left the family. If we assume this is the reason, then Battler's leaving must have something to do with this.
Beatrice cannot leave Rokkenjima, and Battler stopped going there since 6 years ago until this year.
The murders started the year Battler would go to Rokkenjima once more.
So, Battler's coming has triggered the murders. The sin he committed was leaving the island and leaving Beatrice alone.
So, as I said, we assume that Beato's delusional. With that, we can say that someone of the relatives/servants can also be delusional.
Let's take every female for this theory. Natsuhi, Jessica, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, Shannon and Kumasawa. Since "Beatrice" can't leave the island, Natsuhi, Jessica, Shannon and Kumasawa are left. Since "Beatrice" must have know Battler well, in order to know of his sin and wait six years, Jessica and Shannon are left. We also see some signs that "Beatrice" loves Battler so the only one left.... is.... Shannon... Wait, that actually makes sense, even if crazy!
6 years ago, Battler promised that he'll take Shannon away in a white horse. While, of course, everyone know it can't happen with a horse, maybe Shannon really believed that Battler made a real promise. But then, he never came, and she had to continue being a servant. Desperate to forgive this, she moved on. However, she had illusions and delusions regarding Beatrice (eg, the braking of the mirror). When Battler came, she found the chance to take revenge. As we saw, Battler was to die last (with the exception of ep. 3). She probably did all this in an attempt to make Battler remember, or at least understand her feelings.
Spoiler : :
That's not half bad. I won't spoil whether or not you're right, of course. So, here's a challenge for you... how many of the murders can you explain using a Shannon Culprit Theory?
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by Bad Player »

well, if this is happening

here are my post-EP1 theories

you can twist pretty much anyone into the killer if you're willing to assume crazy enough things and/or throw enough accomplices at it, but these are with trying to minimize silliness (which might be a bad idea for ryukishi)
Spoiler : :
Killer: Kumasawa
Accomplices: Genji, Kanon
• Kanon delivered the letter to Maria. Either Kumasawa lied about his alibi, or he did it on the way to calling the cousins for dinner.
• Kumasawa snuck out to the mansion during the night to commit the first 6 murders. If they asked for tea at all, she could have “helped” and snuck in sleeping pills, or she could have put sleeping pills in their dinners when serving the dishes. Gohda and Shannon she could have picked off on their own (plus she has that stake-gun of hers, most likely).
The sleeping drugs would’ve been slow-acting, not taking effect until the night. Anyone who got drugged and remained alive may not have noticed since they just attributed any exhaustion they felt to the family conference.
• When Natsuhi talked to Kinzo, she actually mentioned that people were missing. Kinzo believed/thought it was the devil’s roulette, and so demands that he be taken somewhere else to help protect himself. Natsuhi takes him there, and then goes back to the study to get something else for him, or because she knows Eva will come up to check on what’s going on. Natsuhi doesn’t think anything big is going on, but she humors Kinzo. Having worked for Kinzo for so long, Kumasawa was able to figure out where Kinzo went to. She kills him at some point and throws him in the incinerator. [Or Natsuhi just randomly and conveniently hallucinated Kinzo in the room was already dead and/or gone.]
• Kumasawa, Kanon, and Genji just lied about Eva and Hideyoshi’s locked room. They got in with their keys and the cutter.
• Kumasawa follows Kanon into the basement and shoots him with the stake-gun. This could be planned, or Kumasawa could have betrayed Kanon.
• Kumasawa or Genji slipped the third envelope onto the study table when nobody else was looking.
• Kumasawa and Genji get Maria to believe the Beatrice story. They kill Nanjo, get out a Kumasawa dummy they had prepared, and then Kumasawa either kills Genji or uses a Genji dummy.
• They draw out Natsuhi with the fourth letter. Kumasawa then shoots Natsuhi with a second gun, swaps the guns, and takes the letter.
[You can make this a Kanon theory too if you add Nanjo as an accomplice. Kanon’s death scene was just an act, and Nanjo helped cover it. Then both Kumasawa and Genji could be either a dummy or actually dead.]

Killer: Kinzo
Accomplices: Natsuhi, Genji
• Shannon most likely delivered the letter. She took some time to sneak away from Kumasawa and Kanon. Kinzo probably told her it was a prank or something, and since she was in the first wave of victims, it’d be too late for her when they found out it wasn’t. Genji also could’ve helped cover for her.
• Kinzo could have had Genji put sleeping pills in their dinners when serving the dishes. Kinzo and Genji could have picked off Gohda and Shannon when they were on their own, which wasn’t that hard since they were surprised and there was the stake-gun.
• Natsuhi sneaks Kinzo out of the room that morning. Natsuhi goes back to the study afterwards since she knows Eva will come back after her.
• Natsuhi gives Kinzo the new key to the storehouse, and Kinzo dumps Klaus’s corpse (who has 6 toes too) in the incinerator. He uses the wheelbarrow to help carry the body.
Jessica isn’t there when they find Kinzo’s corpse (so we don’t see her reaction, or even if they tell her that they identified Kinzo’s corpse by the 6th toes), plus she’s in shock from Kanon’s death.
• Genji tricks Eva and Hideyoshi into opening the door for him, and then Kinzo kills them with Genji’s help. Genji leaves, and then Kinzo locks the door from the inside and hides under the bed until everyone discovers the room and opens the room.
• Kinzo shoots Kanon in the basement.
• Natsuhi is the one who put the third letter on the table.
• Kinzo convinces Maria about Beatrice, and shoots Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa.
• He leaves a letter for Natsuhi. When she comes out he shoots her with a second gun, switches the guns and takes the letter.

Killer: Rosa
Accomplice: Nanjo
• As soon as Rosa leaves Maria in the rain, she switches into a Beatrice costume, gives the letter to Maria, and then changes back to her regular clothes.
• She was at the family meeting—she could have drugged their tea and killed everyone else.
• Rosa’s corpse in the storehouse is actually a dummy, which Nanjo lies about.
• When Natsuhi talked to Kinzo, she actually mentioned that people were missing. Kinzo believed/thought it was the devil’s roulette, and so demands that he be taken somewhere else to help protect himself. Natsuhi takes him there, and then goes back to the study to get something else for him, or because she knows Eva will come up to check on what’s going on. (Or she’s going back, and Eva just happens to come up at that time.) Natsuhi doesn’t think anything big is going on, but she humors Kinzo.
Since Kinzo is usually holed up in his study, Rosa knows Kinzo will probably be the toughest one to get. During this time, Rosa was hiding out near Kinzo’s study—so she witnesses Natsuhi taking Kinzo to his new hiding spot, so she knows where it is and can kill him.
• Rosa somehow gets Eva to open the door for her, then kills Eva and Hideyoshi, locks the door from the inside, and hides under the bed.
• Rosa shoots Kanon in the boiler room, no biggie
• Nanjo is the one who put down the third letter
• Rosa comes and she and Nanjo kill Kumasawa and Genji. Nanjo may have been killed, may have just been a dummy.
• Natsuhi’s death is the same as the others.
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Re: Umineko no Naku Koro Ni

Post by TheDoctor »

Bad Player wrote:well, if this is happening

here are my post-EP1 theories

you can twist pretty much anyone into the killer if you're willing to assume crazy enough things and/or throw enough accomplices at it, but these are with trying to minimize silliness (which might be a bad idea for ryukishi)
Spoiler : :
Killer: Kumasawa
Accomplices: Genji, Kanon
• Kanon delivered the letter to Maria. Either Kumasawa lied about his alibi, or he did it on the way to calling the cousins for dinner.
• Kumasawa snuck out to the mansion during the night to commit the first 6 murders. If they asked for tea at all, she could have “helped” and snuck in sleeping pills, or she could have put sleeping pills in their dinners when serving the dishes. Gohda and Shannon she could have picked off on their own (plus she has that stake-gun of hers, most likely).
The sleeping drugs would’ve been slow-acting, not taking effect until the night. Anyone who got drugged and remained alive may not have noticed since they just attributed any exhaustion they felt to the family conference.
• When Natsuhi talked to Kinzo, she actually mentioned that people were missing. Kinzo believed/thought it was the devil’s roulette, and so demands that he be taken somewhere else to help protect himself. Natsuhi takes him there, and then goes back to the study to get something else for him, or because she knows Eva will come up to check on what’s going on. Natsuhi doesn’t think anything big is going on, but she humors Kinzo. Having worked for Kinzo for so long, Kumasawa was able to figure out where Kinzo went to. She kills him at some point and throws him in the incinerator. [Or Natsuhi just randomly and conveniently hallucinated Kinzo in the room was already dead and/or gone.]
• Kumasawa, Kanon, and Genji just lied about Eva and Hideyoshi’s locked room. They got in with their keys and the cutter.
• Kumasawa follows Kanon into the basement and shoots him with the stake-gun. This could be planned, or Kumasawa could have betrayed Kanon.
• Kumasawa or Genji slipped the third envelope onto the study table when nobody else was looking.
• Kumasawa and Genji get Maria to believe the Beatrice story. They kill Nanjo, get out a Kumasawa dummy they had prepared, and then Kumasawa either kills Genji or uses a Genji dummy.
• They draw out Natsuhi with the fourth letter. Kumasawa then shoots Natsuhi with a second gun, swaps the guns, and takes the letter.
[You can make this a Kanon theory too if you add Nanjo as an accomplice. Kanon’s death scene was just an act, and Nanjo helped cover it. Then both Kumasawa and Genji could be either a dummy or actually dead.]

Killer: Kinzo
Accomplices: Natsuhi, Genji
• Shannon most likely delivered the letter. She took some time to sneak away from Kumasawa and Kanon. Kinzo probably told her it was a prank or something, and since she was in the first wave of victims, it’d be too late for her when they found out it wasn’t. Genji also could’ve helped cover for her.
• Kinzo could have had Genji put sleeping pills in their dinners when serving the dishes. Kinzo and Genji could have picked off Gohda and Shannon when they were on their own, which wasn’t that hard since they were surprised and there was the stake-gun.
• Natsuhi sneaks Kinzo out of the room that morning. Natsuhi goes back to the study afterwards since she knows Eva will come back after her.
• Natsuhi gives Kinzo the new key to the storehouse, and Kinzo dumps Klaus’s corpse (who has 6 toes too) in the incinerator. He uses the wheelbarrow to help carry the body.
Jessica isn’t there when they find Kinzo’s corpse (so we don’t see her reaction, or even if they tell her that they identified Kinzo’s corpse by the 6th toes), plus she’s in shock from Kanon’s death.
• Genji tricks Eva and Hideyoshi into opening the door for him, and then Kinzo kills them with Genji’s help. Genji leaves, and then Kinzo locks the door from the inside and hides under the bed until everyone discovers the room and opens the room.
• Kinzo shoots Kanon in the basement.
• Natsuhi is the one who put the third letter on the table.
• Kinzo convinces Maria about Beatrice, and shoots Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa.
• He leaves a letter for Natsuhi. When she comes out he shoots her with a second gun, switches the guns and takes the letter.

Killer: Rosa
Accomplice: Nanjo
• As soon as Rosa leaves Maria in the rain, she switches into a Beatrice costume, gives the letter to Maria, and then changes back to her regular clothes.
• She was at the family meeting—she could have drugged their tea and killed everyone else.
• Rosa’s corpse in the storehouse is actually a dummy, which Nanjo lies about.
• When Natsuhi talked to Kinzo, she actually mentioned that people were missing. Kinzo believed/thought it was the devil’s roulette, and so demands that he be taken somewhere else to help protect himself. Natsuhi takes him there, and then goes back to the study to get something else for him, or because she knows Eva will come up to check on what’s going on. (Or she’s going back, and Eva just happens to come up at that time.) Natsuhi doesn’t think anything big is going on, but she humors Kinzo.
Since Kinzo is usually holed up in his study, Rosa knows Kinzo will probably be the toughest one to get. During this time, Rosa was hiding out near Kinzo’s study—so she witnesses Natsuhi taking Kinzo to his new hiding spot, so she knows where it is and can kill him.
• Rosa somehow gets Eva to open the door for her, then kills Eva and Hideyoshi, locks the door from the inside, and hides under the bed.
• Rosa shoots Kanon in the boiler room, no biggie
• Nanjo is the one who put down the third letter
• Rosa comes and she and Nanjo kill Kumasawa and Genji. Nanjo may have been killed, may have just been a dummy.
• Natsuhi’s death is the same as the others.
Spoiler : EP1 Theory Response :
Funny you should mention the possibility that Kanon and Genji simply lied about the room having been locked. That was something that I thought very early on before even really trying to solve things. Not really sure why it came across like that. I'll have to play through that scene again.
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Umineko: Do I need to complete Higurashi?

Post by Hey »

Not really sure if I'm supposed to write this or not, can I start Umineko without completing higurashi?
I watched until
Spoiler : :
hanyuu and takano meet infront of the shrine. Should i really complete all of higurashi even though I know up till here?
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Re: Umineko: Do I need to complete Higurashi?

Post by Enthalpy »

I'd move this topic, but I'm not sure where to move it to. Are you talking about the anime or the original visual novel?

In any event, everything I've heard says you can go through Umineko (anime or original VN) without any knowledge of Higurashi. I haven't watched/read either version of those, so I may be mistaken.
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Re: Umineko: Do I need to complete Higurashi?

Post by Hey »

The visual novel. I've heard that the big twist came before that scene which I wrote in the spoiler tag. Best not to see it if you're planning on playing higurashi.
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