The "Change My Mind" Thread

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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par Singidava » Lun Août 10, 2015 9:53 am

Change my mind about Higurashi anime. As some of you already know, I just can't bring myself to like it.

Spoiler : Miscellanious Higurashi spoilers :
Particularly in the first season, I felt like it was just boring and repetitive. If I was in, say, episode 9 or so, I would have just looked at the episode count and know there is no hope for them to survive this round anyway, so watching it feels like a waste of time. To me it seems like the only reason anyone would want to watch it is because they like gore. The second season is somewhat better thanks to Rika giving at least some continuity so it doesn't feel as repetitive. Still, it just gives us some totally disappointing solutions. I mean worms? Come on! And what do you mean Hinamizawa syndrome? Now that's just silly. It feels like another version of "it was all just a dream" cliché but only when it's convenient...
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par NihilisticNinja » Mar Août 11, 2015 9:34 am

Ok, I'll take a crack at it. (enigma didn't want to respond to this but gave me some key points that he wanted me to include so I'll be incorporating those.)

Singidava a écrit :Change my mind about Higurashi anime. As some of you already know, I just can't bring myself to like it.

Spoiler : Miscellanious Higurashi spoilers :
Particularly in the first season, I felt like it was just boring and repetitive. If I was in, say, episode 9 or so, I would have just looked at the episode count and know there is no hope for them to survive this round anyway, so watching it feels like a waste of time.


Spoiler : Higu spoilers :
The thing about Higu arcs is that I'm not sure they're all that repetitive at all. Aside from the core deaths- Tomitake and Takano, people tend to die in different orders, to different causes, to different killers, etc. The exact times in which they die vary, and the specific contexts in which they occur vary. Even the build-up to the Watanagashi is at least slightly different- and is sharply different in arc 3. In addition, none of the arcs are pointless filler because they all contribute something to the story. Arc 1 establishes the basic premise, arc 2 establishes Mion, Shion, and their family, arc 3 establishes Satoko's situation (something that was foreshadowed in the previous arcs but is made vibrantly clear in this one). Every arc adds new elements that contribute to the story being a complete whole- with smaller instances of backstory for characters like Keiichi and Rena being littered throughout the arcs, in addition to the occasional plot point. The only arc you could really argue is padding is 4, and a minimum it at least introduces an important character, gives some backstory as to the Dam incident, and has a bit of foreshadowing at the end.

The arcs that represent the answer arcs (5 and 6) ARE very similar to the other arcs. However, given that their goal is to essentially present a solution to what occurred in those arcs, they basically have to be. And in both those cases it's told from a very different perspective, has a different timeline, and different information is obtained about different characters. So they're still quite distinct.

The deaths being inevitable is true, but it could be argued that that is an additional motivator to figure out the plot. Given that it's different circumstances each time, what is causing all of this? What is the core of the story that makes it so that, despite time looping, the same end occurs every single time?


Singidava a écrit :
Spoiler : Miscellanious Higurashi spoilers :
To me it seems like the only reason anyone would want to watch it is because they like gore


Spoiler : Higu :
I'll just leave this as an enumerated list:
Reasons people would want to watch Higu asides from enjoying gore:
1. Feeling attachment to the characters and wanting to learn more about them
2. Feeling attachment to the characters and being intrigued of how they are going to get out of each situation they end up being thrown into, or if they don't, what causes them to fail.
3. Wanting to understand why the characters commit the vicious actions they do within the story.
4. Being intrigued by each new plot twist and wondering how this ties into the core story or its consequences
5. Wanting to solve the core mystery of what exactly is going on
6. Being entertained by the character interactions, dialogue, etc.
7. The music and art style strongly appealing to you.

I could go on. Higurashi isn't exactly Hostel- the story is full of characters whose intent is to be sympathetic and that you're supposed to sympathize or empathize with. You can argue about how well they do at this- I certainly would- but clearly you are supposed to feel tension at each situation they get in, and wonder what could be causing the antagonists- who seem like decently, friendly people, to be doing this. That's partially where the horror is supposed to derive from; being horrified that seemingly decent-to-good people are commit this horrific actions for reasons you don't necessarily completely understand. (Or, in Shion's case, the horror could arise from seeing her slow descent into total insanity.)

The gore is also very reserved in the first couple arcs- it acts as a punctuation mark, rather than being the emphasis. You get very little gore up until the very end, and then you clearly aren't supposed to be taking joy in it- it's supposed to be horrifying. The only arc that really defies this is the Shion-centric one, and I would argue that even there the gore isn't the "main attraction" or even really the central focus, the focus is on the character of Shion as her mind slowly crumbles and she ends up committing horrific acts that even a year ago she never would have even considered.

We'll set aside Kai, which is far less gorey, since you are talking about the first season at the moment.


Singidava a écrit :
Spoiler : Miscellanious Higurashi spoilers :
Still, it just gives us some totally disappointing solutions. I mean worms? Come on! And what do you mean Hinamizawa syndrome? Now that's just silly. It feels like another version of "it was all just a dream" cliché but only when it's convenient...


Spoiler : Higu :
So, to clarify- are you complaining about the nature of the solutions themselves, or the fact that they weren't foreshadowed well enough, in your opinion?

Comparing Hinamizawa Syndrome to "it was all a dream" is a pretty flawed comparison, because the problem with "it was all a dream" is that it completely erases everything that occurred and essentially declares that none of it happened. But in the context of the timelines themselves, these events did happen, even from the perspective of the person with HS. Keiichi didn't actually not have conversations with Rena, it was just that his perception of those conversations was totally altered by HS and lead him to making certain actions. And the fact that his choices were based on flawed premises that are essentially the figment of that person's imagination (the false premises at least we could have probably all guessed from the beginning to at least some extent, Rena and Mion weren't actually going to turn out to be possessed by an evil god, after all) doesn't mean that the events that are caused by those events didn't occur and didn't mean something to the characters, either the HS-infected character or the characters whose lives are negatively impacted BY that character.

And it's worth noting that Shion honestly didn't get that many actual delusions while under HS as I recall- it mostly just totally corrupted her thinking, ramped up her paranoia, and drove her insane. The whole "It was all a dream" thing doesn't even strictly apply in this case.

If that is referring to the nature of the timeloops, even outside the loops themselves, the events have meaning- to Rika, given that her continual failure to save everyone and them dying again and again (and herself dying again and again) are a key part of her characterization at the beginning of Kai. This is also true of Hanyuu, but to a much lesser extent- then again, Hanyuu is also much less of a character than Rika, honestly.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par TheDoctor » Mer Nov 04, 2015 10:09 am

Spoiler : Higurashi answer arcs :
Also, part of the genius of the first arc (Onikakushi-hen), is that we viewers/players are subjected to the same delusions Keichii is. Just like him, most of us viewers/players completely buy into the idea that Rena and Mion are psychopaths. It's not until much later that we realize it was baseless paranoia.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par PhoenixRises123 » Dim Nov 15, 2015 4:17 am

Here I have something for you..
Spoiler : :
Change my mind about ....Umineko, it's way too gosh dang confusing and contradicting!

EDIT: I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE ANIME!
Dernière édition par PhoenixRises123 le Mer Nov 18, 2015 2:24 am, édité 1 fois.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par NihilisticNinja » Dim Nov 15, 2015 5:19 am

PhoenixRises123 a écrit :Here I have something for you..
Spoiler : :
Change my mind about ....Umineko, it's way too gosh dang confusing and contradicting!


I'd be willing to give it a go, but you'd need to really define your terms. What do you mean by "contradicting"? Exactly what about it do you find confusing? I can think of several possible arguments that you could make, but I don't want to make an essay about this that will be too long for anybody to be reasonably expected to read, so some directions to take my arguments in would be good
"With good friends by your side, anything is possible. If you really care for each other, it makes everyone stronger! Then you'll have the will to succeed! The world is filled with painful things, it's sad sometimes, and you won't be able to handle it by yourself. But just know: If there's someone that you love, you'll stay on the right path. And you won't ever give in! As long as you keep that person in your heart, you'll keep getting back up. Understand? That's why a Hero never loses!"

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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par PhoenixRises123 » Mer Nov 18, 2015 2:24 am

NihilisticNinja a écrit :
PhoenixRises123 a écrit :Here I have something for you..
Spoiler : :
Change my mind about ....Umineko, it's way too gosh dang confusing and contradicting!


I'd be willing to give it a go, but you'd need to really define your terms. What do you mean by "contradicting"? Exactly what about it do you find confusing? I can think of several possible arguments that you could make, but I don't want to make an essay about this that will be too long for anybody to be reasonably expected to read, so some directions to take my arguments in would be good

Sorry about that! here's my more detailed thoughts
Spoiler : :
Umineko, in my opinion, is a complicated mind boggling mess. I tried to give it a shot but I don't think it's for me. Firstly, I think that there's waaaay too many characters and stories tied together very loosely. I had no idea what was even going on anymore, first there were a bunch of mysterious murders on an island, then we got to epic magical swordfights with words with different colors. Plus there's the characters themselves, some of them have very little screen-time, and I can't really 'cheer' for Battler, the protagonist. He doesn't really have any indulging motives other than just saying "magic is not real" but we see magical things all the time. So either the murders that happened weren't done with magic, or his entire struggle was just pointless.. Plus we have no idea what happens next, because there's no season two, and I'm pretty sure there will never be..
That's my thoughts on Umineko: When they cry
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par DSY » Mer Nov 18, 2015 8:40 am

Since you are so popular on the Change My Mind Thread, Mr. NihilisticNinja. Change My Mind about Higurashi, THE ANIME!

Spoiler : DSY's Thoughts on The Higurashi Anime :
I watched the Anime of Higurashi for no other reason then a friend of mine likes it. So i figured I might find it interesting. I did not. I felt the show had little intrigue. The mystery wasn't hard to figure out, and if it turns out it's not the people you think it is, well that's not hard to believe either. Another problem is I didn't find any of the characters engaging. The main character was a loser and at times, a total idiot. And all the supports were unlikable too. I think I only got invested in one character and he left, and without wishing to spoil, I very much doubt he'll be coming back. I only watched about 3 or so episodes so It's very likely I'm judging it unfairly, but what I'm asking you to change my mind about is that I find the show dull and un-intriguing, with little reason to keep watching. So if you can, Change My Mind.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par TheDoctor » Mer Nov 18, 2015 9:17 am

Spoiler : Spoilers up to episode 3 of Higurashi :
I'm assuming it was Tomitake you were invested in? Odd choice, but whatever. I suggest you watch at least up to episode 4. Whether or not you continue after that point is up to you, but I think episode 4 might make things a little more interesting.

That said, episode 5 can cause some confusion as to just what the heck is going on; however, if you'll bear with it, the confusion will be explained away during season two. If you can't bear to wait that long, and need some explanation immediately after episode 5, I'll provide a partial explanation in a spoiler below this one. But don't open it until after episode 5.


Warning: the following contains spoilers for the Higurashi anime. Do NOT open until after episode 5 at the very least.
Spoiler : Spoileriffic explanation. :
If you'll think of it as a visual novel, each arc goes down a different path than the previous one, with the goal of establishing constants, or "rules," and giving more pieces of information that'll help give the viewer an idea of just who or what is behind Oyashiro-sama's curse, with the final arc of season two wrapping up (almost) all the loose threads from the previous arcs.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par DSY » Jeu Nov 19, 2015 2:40 am

To respond to you Mr. Matt Smith, by your request I will now watch episodes 4 and 5 and give you my notes on both as well as my final thoughts on Higurashi. But sad to say, what you told me in you're post has not helped my opinion of Higurashi, in fact. I was actually made it worse. I'll explain.

Spoiler : Response to what you said :
If episode 5 is so confusing you need to give an explanation for it in another spoiler tag. (and explanation that I at time for writing have not read yet) and apparently is not explained until season 2. I have to say that is a lot of faith that the viewer will even stick around that long, much less care about whatever was so cryptic and confusing from episode 5 by the time season 2 comes out. I was going to bring up the fact that you didn't say anything about my thoughts on the characters but I didn't really ask so you wouldn't have a reason to comment on that so.... this is a mot point and I only bring it up if you do have something to say about my impression of them.


Spoiler : DSY's notes on Ep4 of Higurashi (SPOILERS) :
1) HAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHH. Oh this is so freaking stupid it's actually hilarious.
2) I said as a joke the show would get better if everyone died. I didn't think it would actually happen.


Spoiler : DSY's notes on Ep5 of Higurashi (SPOILERS) :
1) I keep getting Higurashi and Umineko mixed up. This episode is not helping.
2) I guess she had a splitting head ache. AM I RIGHT?
3) I know I'm making a lot more notes on this episode then episode 4 but I have so much more to say about this episode, such as: EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!
4)......I repeat. EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!
5) I repeat again, I get Higu mixed up with Umi sometimes. This episode is not helping.
6) I just found out my previous EW was not nearly enough. I don't think I want to watch episode 5 long enough to find out what this super crazy plot twist is.
7) I like to imagine this Shion girl is part of a Hive mind.
8 ) THEY WILL JOIN THE HIVE MIND. ALL WILL JOIN THE HIVE MIND.
9) so I never actually saw what this big plot twist was that needed an explanation. Unless the big confusing thing is: "How did the dead people come back ti life?" In which case i can infer it's probably the work of that evil spirit guy, and safely say, "I don't actually care how they came back to life."


And now I am typing this after finishing Episodes 4-5 and I can safely say. I still have no interest in watching Higurashi. And i still have the same problem I had before, plus some new ones.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread 

Message par DSY » Jeu Nov 19, 2015 7:43 am

After talking with Mr. NihilisticNinja, and Mr. BadPlayer about my opinions on Higurashi. We have come to an agreement. I still don't like Higurashi for the same reasons I said before plus a few new ones I got from Episode 4 and 5. And so i will not watch more. Mind Unchanged. The point of this post is basically, no one need say more to me on the topic. (Also Sorry for double posting)
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