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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby TheDoctor » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:40 pm

Really, it's sad though that Last of the Time Lords sucked as bad as it did. I didn't even think it was so bad until everyone thinking about the Doctor magically managed to fix his situation without so much as an explanation why. People say Moffat relies too much on Deus ex Machina? RTD did it first, he did it worse.

Really, all it needed was some kind of technobabble expository dialogue explaining that all those people were providing the Doctor with enough of a psychic boost to break through to some kind of failsafe system in the Tardis that he couldn't reach before because the Master was blocking it. Or something like that.

Either that or it needed a Dalek. The good season finales all seem to have at least one Dalek in them. (End of Time didn't have a Dalek, but seeing as how it wasn't technically a season finale so much as a New Year's special, and considering it had Wilfred Mott, I still liked it fairly well).
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Lind » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:54 pm

TheDoctor wrote:Really, it's sad though that Last of the Time Lords sucked as bad as it did. I didn't even think it was so bad until everyone thinking about the Doctor magically managed to fix his situation without so much as an explanation why. People say Moffat relies too much on Deus ex Machina? RTD did it first, he did it worse.

Really, all it needed was some kind of technobabble expository dialogue explaining that all those people were providing the Doctor with enough of a psychic boost to break through to some kind of failsafe system in the Tardis that he couldn't reach before because the Master was blocking it. Or something like that.

Either that or it needed a Dalek. The good season finales all seem to have at least one Dalek in them. (End of Time didn't have a Dalek, but seeing as how it wasn't technically a season finale so much as a New Year's special, and considering it had Wilfred Mott, I still liked it fairly well).

The Master is more than enough to make up for The Daleks, and he's in both.

Personally, all I wanted were three things.

1. A decent explanation for the Doctor's revival.

2. The Doctor reviving in a much more subtle way than the overt Christ symbolism they used. The 10th Doctor worked his best at his most flawed and vulnerable - building him up as some mythical figure usually ends badly.

3. Not focusing on Martha Jones for 90% of the episode, being that she is a largely uninteresting character and arguably the worst New Who companion to date, not that Clara Oswald isn't trying her hardest to steal that position.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby TheDoctor » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:03 pm

Agreed about Martha being one of the worst companions. She was just kind of boring. Now, if they had written her as someone who was just in it for the adventure as opposed to someone who was yet again pining for the Doctor, she would have been much better (actually, I once read a fan rewrite of season three where Rose didn't get stuck in an AU but was able to continue her travels with the Doctor, and they still brought Martha along for the ride and she became kind of like a shipper on deck. It was a marked improvement if you ask me).

I still say Amy was worse though. At least Martha was just bland, Amy had too much of a personality and attempted to overshadow the Doctor at every turn (and let's not forget her escapade at the end of Flesh and Stone/The Time of Angels).

Say what you will about Clara, but I actually rather liked her during 11th's run. The two of them had pretty good chemistry together. I'd probably still like her a lot if it weren't for her subplot-masquerading-as-a-mainplot "romance" with Danny Pink. The two of them have absolutely no chemistry whatsoever, and I'd much rather see how Clara and 12th's relationship differed from her's and 11th's without the P.E. teacher being there as a distraction.

I am NOT saying I want to see Clara and 12th in a flirty or romantic relationship. I think that would just be weird. But I think she would have worked well as the Donna to 12th's 10th. (I would like to point out that Donna had no romantic feelings toward the Doctor, nor did she have any romantic subplot aside from her first and last episodes, yet she was my favorite full-time companion in the series. Think there might be a connection?)

Not saying romance should never be included in Doctor Who. I enjoyed Rose and 10th for the most part, and likely would have enjoyed Clara and 11th if it ever went anywhere beyond flirting. Amy and Rory could have been good if it weren't for them making it look like there was a love triangle with the Doctor, even after they got married. Heck, I might even enjoy 12th and River if they decide to bring her in at some point. But I just don't think romance is a necessary component in the show. At the end of the day, I'm watching the show for the fantastic adventures and the monsters. Romance is little more than DLC.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Lind » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:20 am

Dark Water is easily the best episode of series 8 and if this goes the way of Last of the Time Lords I will personally strangle Moffat with his own scrotum.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby TheDoctor » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:09 am

Seconded. I was completely shocked when they explained who Missy was. Part one was an excellent buildup, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how it ends.

Spoiler : Questions :
Will Danny stay dead?

Will Clara die?

Does it really matter if you don't have the keys to the TARDIS when you can open the door by snapping your fingers?

Can we have a season finale with some lasting consequences this time (other than a companion leaving, or the Doctor regenerating)? Pretty much all the other season finales left the status quo in tact. I'd like there to be some repercussions for once (other than the Doctor going emo. That never works well).
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Lind » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:30 am

TheDoctor wrote:Seconded. I was completely shocked when they explained who Missy was. Part one was an excellent buildup, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how it ends.

Spoiler : Questions :
Will Danny stay dead?

Will Clara die?

Does it really matter if you don't have the keys to the TARDIS when you can open the door by snapping your fingers?

Can we have a season finale with some lasting consequences this time (other than a companion leaving, or the Doctor regenerating)? Pretty much all the other season finales left the status quo in tact. I'd like there to be some repercussions for once (other than the Doctor going emo. That never works well).
Spoiler : :
Personally, I just want some sort of mass-scale event that the earth will ACTUALLY REMEMBER, akin to The Stolen Earth. What I liked about the RTD era was that it was never afraid to challenge the status quo (except for Last of the Time Lords which I am never going to stop beating up on). that the Moffat era used the Silence to make everyone forget about that near-apocalypse for some reason annoyed the heckie out of me.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Spyromed » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:35 am

Spoiler : Dark Water :
.
Apart from the awful reveal to an already bad mystery (seriously, before Dark Water, we knew the same about Missy as we did all the way back in Deep Breath) and Clara's stupid plan (assuming the keys were the only way to get into the TARDIS, so destroying them, ensuring the Doctor could NOT save Danny,) the epsode was good. Probably the best of the series, excluding MotOE. A pretty slow paced build up to what is, hopefully, an actually decent finalé.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Ami » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:24 pm

Disappointed that Eternals weren't coming back. =(

Spoiler : Dark Water :
Pros:
- Strong return for The Master/Mistress in her reveal. Actual confirmation of gender bending time lords beyond Gaiman's script. <3
- I'll admit that I didn't see Cybermen coming. Though I didn't quite catch the whole "cyber space cyber men" part.
- Clara actually feeling guilty over something tangible. Good!
- Danny is finally dead. Thank goodness. I don't care if they bring him back. He's a crappy romantic subplot.
- As opposed to the previous one, this episode actually employed actors. Good job!
- The Mistress isn't a hypersexualized "I love The Doctor and what his butt-bottom while vaguely wanting him harmed before I save him because of my immense love" like Moffat turned River into. This could still change, but the choice in casting suggests Moffat is actually showing some restraint here.
- The return of Granny Oswald, whom was... underwhelming in this appearance, but none the less welcome.

Mehs:
- The confrontation on the kid Danny killed was tepid at best, and didn't really add much. Unless this kid is gonna do something in the next episode, this was an opportunity wasted. However, it wasn't TERRIBLE.
- I get that The Mistress is using The Cybermen to do something bigger, but... hasn't she learned her lesson yet? I mean, quite literally every partner she has betrays her at some point. The Daleks at least twice. The Time Lords. The companion she abused. She's literally better just working on her own.
- Sincerely wanted Eternals more than The Mistress. That would've been entertaining. We already have a Death eternal! ;_; But The Mistress is rarely boring, so...
- Lack of coherent explanation on the Time Lord's fancy disco ball. I remember things being said, but the sound was too loud or the actors were too soft.
- Come to think of it, we never learn what the three words are. I'm fairly sure the white noise thing was five words. And like I think one of them started with W. Or am I missing something?

Cons:
- Missy's sexual assault on The Doctor for no reason. I get that the ship's been teased very hard in the show, but it felt very forced. Like, even the "I'm pressing your hand erotically against my chest" thing doesn't make sense when time lords can quite literally sense one another over a long distance of space/time.
- The dream sequence literally added nothing to the episode. We already knew Clara was upset and waiting for The Doctor to help her save Danny. The fact that it was a dream patch took away all the drama and punch out of the volcano scene.
- This episode was padded SO HARD to maintain the "rise" so that the next episode can be mostly climax. Lots of standing around going "WHAT IS THE THING!?" "Well, lemme explain it in vague, pointed terms that lead you to the conclusion." "BUT WHAT IS THE THING, SHE WANTS TO KNOW!" "I ALSO WANT TO KNOW BUT DON'T WANT TO BE SPOKEN FOR!" "Okay, I hear what you're saying, so let me rephrase it in yet another vague, drawn out way." "BUT WHAT IS THE THING!?" "TELL ME WHAT THE THING WITH A THREAT SO YOU'LL TELL ME WHAT THE THING IS!" "Okay, so here's what this other thing is." "THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ASKED!" "Okay, so here's what the thing actually is." This form of padding was done most memorably twice: once in the office with the singular cyberman, and again between Clara and Danny.
- Did Clara seriously forget in her dream state that The Doctor can open the door with a snap? Or that he'd seriously NEED the keys? Or that he couldn't somehow make more?
- Danny was killed in such a contrived way that they might as well played "You Are My Sunshine" in the background while he's signing papers related to his teaching retirement that is two weeks away.
- So tired of Clara's waif face. I know she can act, but it's like Moffat wrote "please don't use any facial expressions other than concerned, pleasant, worried, or bereaved".
- Also 11,307% done with Clara and Danny's contrived romance. We're shown that they love each other, but we never really get a feel of why. We know that Danny has some weird protective instincts that need to be exercised over Clara somehow. And that they find each other physically attractive. Other than the fact that they save each other and that Clara knows their grandkid will be a pioneer time traveler, there's almost no shown relationship. If you count when Clara went back in time and did the whole mommy thing during his time at an orphanage, then I would disagree- given that he barely remembers it.
- Sorta miffed that Moffat scoffed at a female Doctor, but now The Mistress is female. Kinda feels hypocritical.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Spyromed » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:50 pm

Ami wrote:
Spoiler : Dark Water :
Lack of coherent explanation on the Time Lord's fancy disco ball. I remember things being said, but the sound was too loud or the actors were too soft.

Spoiler : Dark Water :
.
I'm fairly sure its' explanation was:

1. Person dies.
2. Consciousness is somehow "uploaded" to the sphere, where they seem human, but are still just that - a consciousness.
3. They are, somewhere along the line, offered to "delete" their consciousness, uploading it to one of the empty Cybermen.
4. Cybermen do the thing.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Lind » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:23 am

"In the Forest of the Night" is now the second lowest-rated Doctor Who episode on IMDB, just above "Fear Her".

Says it all, really.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby TheDoctor » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:18 pm

Loved the episode, hated the actual ending.

Spoiler : "" :
I found the idea of the Doctor being the president rather amusing. I was a little disappointed with the true meaning behind Clara's line from the trailer being nothing more than a bluff (although, given the alternative in this case being that she was a future incarnation of the Doctor, I'm glad it was only a bluff because that would just be weird given her history). Missy/The Mistress/The Master was played rather well, nuttier than a fruitcake, as it should be. Hated that they killed off Osgood. Pretty sure the Internet isn't ever going to let that one go. I also got kind of choked up when the Cyber Brigadier showed up.

This is interestingly one of the only two episodes where I found Danny Pink likable. Specifically, when he was giving orders to the Cyberarmy. His character was really a waste though, and I'll tell you why...

In his first episode, we find that he has regrets about killing someone. Okay, they obviously can't give everything about his character away at this point, let's see where this takes us...

In Listen, his regrets are brought up again because Clara says something stupid on their date. Really? You used that subtle character moment just to give them something to fight about? Well, we're still early on in the season, maybe it'll come up again...

Dark Water shows that the person he killed was an innocent boy, and his only purpose in this episode is to spur Danny towards deleting his emotions? I thought that's what Clara was for... Ugh, you people suck.

Oh wait, the kid's in Death in Heaven... Wait, he's only there so that Danny's only chance at coming back to life gets used up on him? Why even bother giving him that chance to begin with? We already know Danny cares more about others' lives than he does his own, that much was obvious when he performed his heroic sacrifice, so this gesture doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. So, what was the point of this "character arc?"

This is where I rant about the ending. The Doctor and Clara split up because the Doctor lies to Clara about Gallifrey being found so she can stay with Danny and live a normal life. Clara lies about Danny being back so that the Doctor can go home to Gallifrey without her getting underfoot. In other words, they split up because both of them are too stupid and immature to tell each other the truth. And thus, it means that Danny's sole purpose in the show was to drive a wedge in-between the Doctor and Clara. i.e. Wasted character. Seriously, this is the lamest character exit I've ever seen.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Spyromed » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:41 pm

Spoiler : Death in Heaven thoughts :
.
I thought that this episode would go for an RT. D whole-world-invasion style approach rather than Moffat's usual, quieter, stories, but it still managed to do the latter despite having as many Cybermen as there were dead people in the world. The whole thing wasn't bad, but after it all concluded, it felt a bit unfinished and insubstantial. I can't even tell if Clara left for good or if she's just gonna stumble back into the Doctor in the Christmas special because the ending was so rushed.

Missy was only marginally better than Moffat's usual stock villains, but it feels like he wrote the "lolimapsycho" archetype and then added nothing much else to it. Worse still, the episodes prior to Dark Water could've deleted those Missy scenes and had the much more effective "Yana" approach, where the whole thing is just out ofthe blue and it's the first time the character's introduced. By shooting the plot in the face at the end of some episodes to give Missy some screen time in which we learn nothing new, they're setting themselves up for disappointment.
As for Clara declaring that she trusted the Doctor more than anyone else to Danny without realising it, that was... really forced. How come Danny is the only cyberman out of all of them to have emotions, anyway? Because that thing on his chest broke? Brilliant.

The only thing that really stood out as good was the Brigadeer moment, which I know many people dislike. I didn't like how he shot the Master, but the salute from the Doctor was forshadowed a little bit, and it was too perfect a scenario to not have something to do with him.
Other than that... it as enjoyable, and the atmosphere was quite cool, but it just didn't feel like a conclusive end. Maybe I'm just bitter because there has not been a proper Cyberman finalé yet. (They did nothing here, and were greatly overshadowed in Doomsday.)
And they went and extended the Gus mystery to the next story arc. Goddamn it.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby Ami » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:16 pm

Spoiler : Theory that makes everything better :
Osgood didn't die.

A zygon did.


At least, they better write it that way. Because

Spoiler : Spoilery short rant :
Osgood was infinitely cooler and more interesting than Kate, was more active in everything when featured with her sister, and all around one of Moffat's few women done well.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby TheDoctor » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:23 am

I would be okay with that, or...

Spoiler : :
The real Osgood died, but there's a Zygon who think they're the real Osgood who comes in a future episode. They explain it away as the other one having been the Zygon, then reveal the truth for dramatic effect.


EDIT: I just realized something...

Spoiler : :
If you count the flashback, there was technically a Dalek in this episode. In other words, my theory about a season finale needing at least one Dalek in it to be better than Last of the Time Lords has not been disproven yet.
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Re: Doctor Who 

Postby TheDoctor » Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:21 pm

Just two days left until the Christmas special. I wonder how it will turn out.
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