How to Review Trials Appropriately

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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par Phantom » Dim Juin 02, 2013 1:25 pm

DKJustice1 a écrit :May I make a comment?

I have notice that even though some people don't often agree on this form there is a lot of respect:
for the people who write and grade threads. However, though I can say grading may get in the way of the fun of this
game. The reason is people are far too easy to offend now a days.

Rather apt to jump to the wrong end of the thread this could resulting in a low grade to lead to arguments. Unfortunately. This could
lead to insults and rather rude comments. The best example of this is at the start of this thread.

Hope you don't mind but I am not going to use this system for that reason. Everyone is equal then and that is all.


Nice necro :P

I don't think you can fairly judge the grading system based on what this thread *suggests* to use and the argumentations for/against the particular system (in the case you're referring to, grades). Regarding the "incident" in this thread, there was a clear misunderstanding on what was and was not allowed for *members* to review based on how they felt best. It's been resolved a long time ago though so I'm not sure why it wold be an issue now.

Have you actually seen a graded review in action in these forums? So far, everytime it has been used, a trial author has praised a graded review for its usefulness and the effort actually put in to write one up. No actual criticisms have been made on these forums when they were actually put into practice. If you're willing to reconsider, would you like to see a couple of examples seeing the grading system in action? Again, basing your judgement on this thread that's meant to be a suggestion is really, really not fair xP

Still, no one's forcing you to review a certain way, but I think the point of the thread was to send a message to all members who give feedback to authors, to give a useful review that shows in detail where an author does well, and where an author does poorly on, so he/she can improve the trial later. Using a grading system is one way, and using a point system is another. Using neither is also an option and just going with a general thought-process review. These are merely methods and standards that tries to accomplish the same thing in the end (might as well clump a QA with that too)
Phantom
 

Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par DKJustice1 » Lun Juin 03, 2013 1:41 am

@Putin I'm not stupid. So don't treat me like I am and to answer your rather blunt question. No I have not.
See. This is a silly thing that is someone says something. You just proved me right you fool.

This is exactly what I meant, Having a go at me are we...

All I did was post my view so what. I am not going be bad mouthed on this thread.
I stick to what I said before. Thanks for proving my point.

Ergo, a perfect example of what happens when someone make a fair comment,
In away I still think the grading system could be improved. However, what concerns me is the reactions of
others that can't take advice or take something too personal. If they get a bad grade it could turn them away.

Surely we don't want to do that now do we Puntin?

@ Meph what is your opiniion on this matter?

Sorry for being blunt. But I had been hacked. Resolved though. Never get Java it is a hackers gate way.
[size=85]Ace Attorney Poem.

What a crime is done.
Gumshoe's has come.
His name is Dick.
It's a point and click.


To find a clue
or maybe a few.
To made your point of view.

In the trial
where every one stares
the judge does glare.


Objections fly from everywhere![/size]
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par Phantom » Lun Juin 03, 2013 2:51 am

DKJustice1 a écrit :@Putin I'm not stupid. So don't treat me like I am and to answer your rather blunt question. No I have not.
See. This is a silly thing that is someone says something. You just proved me right you fool.

This is exactly what I meant, Having a go at me are we...

All I did was post my view so what. I am not going be bad mouthed on this thread.
I stick to what I said before. Thanks for proving my point.

Ergo, a perfect example of what happens when someone make a fair comment,
In away I still think the grading system could be improved. However, what concerns me is the reactions of
others that can't take advice or take something too personal. If they get a bad grade it could turn them away.

Surely we don't want to do that now do we Puntin?

@ Meph what is your opiniion on this matter?

Sorry for being blunt. But I had been hacked. Resolved though. Never get Java it is a hackers gate way.


...DK, sorry if I actually did, but I'm not sure I really understand why you're offended. Where in my post did I badmouth you? I even politely asked if you're willing to reconsider the grading form of review system by seeing actual practical examples put into practice?
Surely it should be okay if I just disagree with your post, there's no harm done with our different opinions on the matter. As I said before in my post, no one's forcing you to review one way or another ;)
I want you to know that I value your opinion like anyone else here, but it's not a personal attack against you or anything. There must be a misunderstanding somewhere :(

Also, could you explain your point in more detail? I legitimately don't understand what you just proved, seeing as your reaction isn't towards a negative review of any kind, but to some comment I made that really made you upset (which again, I apologize in advance for :P)

--------------------------
Moving on, how do you think the grading system can be improved? As in, organized better for use, or what?
Actually, I think E.D. Revolution solved this potential issue of a negative reaction from an author by establishing a "baseline" average that an author has to pass in his reviews. For example, if he reviews a trial right now, he would make the baseline average a "C" grade. Which means if you trial gets an overall grade of "C", the trial is playable, and most importantly, passable in terms of quality (so it can still be enjoyed, but obviously needs some form of improvement).

I *think* that's how he made it worked. Can't remember. If you're willing to see how he does it, I can go search around the forums for these particular reviews that he made specifically, since he's the last guy I remember who used the latest standard regarding properly using the grading system here.

No one wants to see a negative review though DK, no matter what type of review system it may be used. But like Unas said a long time ago in this thread, as long as you explain clearly and in detail why you believe the trial isn't good, then an author will most likely be more motivated to fix issues within his/her case since he/she'll know in detail what went wrong for the player in the trial. The proper term for this proper input is called "constructive feedback".


I hope clears up everything though. Sorry for any misunderstanding :)
Phantom
 

Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par DKJustice1 » Ven Juil 05, 2013 8:17 pm

Ha! I guess I just proved my own point: Hmm, a misunderstanding; yes I re-read your post I just wanted to
prove a point just how easy it is to rub someone up the wrong way.

I understand your point a little clearer and willing to accept it.

It just shows how easily that people can determine something
to be offensive. Lets take the Grade ' F' for example

Some people might think it meant ' Fail' then that is what I am worried about.

Or the Grad ' C' They could provoke some unwanted language giving the moderators a hard time.
[size=85]Ace Attorney Poem.

What a crime is done.
Gumshoe's has come.
His name is Dick.
It's a point and click.


To find a clue
or maybe a few.
To made your point of view.

In the trial
where every one stares
the judge does glare.


Objections fly from everywhere![/size]
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par clcman » Dim Juil 14, 2013 3:19 pm

That's why the universal conclusion here (I think :random: ) is that you should never give JUST a grade to a trial. You need to actually explain why you feel that way, and what you think could be improved.
(And if a "C" is the baseline average of "okay and playable" then an "F" WOULD probably be "not playable" which is basically the equivalent of "fail." Personally, I think that some people might take a C the wrong way since usually an "A" is "good" but if the reviewer makes a note of their scale in the review, it should be okay.)
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par Phantom » Mer Juil 24, 2013 12:24 pm

^Yes, spot-on, that's basically the best summary of Unas's post about this.

From how I understood from ED's latest use of the grading standard, he always explains the scale first (but more detailed than someone like me does :P) before going on in the actual review. It's pretty much mandatory if you intend to use teh grading system.

That way, no misunderstandings are made when you get an "F", which clearly means it's poor on one area of a case.

But like you alluded to clcman, with the grading scale, you're essentially FORCED to give your reasons as to why a certain area in a case has gotten a certain grade, be it an F, or an A. The review will be taken too wrongly/will not be taken seriously otherwise.

As for the baseline average, I can understand that a C could be taken the wrong way. But I designed/allowed the system (for use in AAO obviously) to try to be as objective as possible and adaptable in this manner. That's why ED proposed the baseline average concept in the first place, to establish a clear line of a reviewer's thought process on what grade constitutes as "good", "very good", or "passable" (hence, the term, "baseline" :))
---
As for you DK...Uhh, I still don't follow, are you saying I was being rubbed the wrong way, orr...? ^^'

Again, everytime this system has been used here on AAO, it's been well received by the author for its usefulness. After all, we also made it a requirement that we have other peers on AAO to check our grading reviews for fairness and objectivity, since we understand the pitfalls/misunderstandings that could *potentially* occur if someone decides to use it wrongly.
What you say about provoking unwarranted languages has been proven untrue so far. Some controversial QA reviews on the other hand... :XD:

It's not a type of review you're supposed to hastily use. It takes CONSIDERABLE time to write a proper one up, since you're forced to give clear justifications on the grades (but you can say that about ANY type of review :P).

Anyways, the best summary to wrap it all up is clcman's ^post. Really don't want to repeat myself or anyone else saying basically the same thing the past couple of pages haha
Phantom
 

Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par DKJustice1 » Jeu Juil 25, 2013 2:14 am

Hmm, I think I understand a little better now: So it like the grading in school almost like 'A' is top marks

so a comment would be like this.

Grade A+ Perfect.

I really enjoyed the trial it was well thought out and the dialogue and music set the tone perfectly,
the twist and turns often made us believe the truth was out there well done.

Grade B

Great work this is a very lovely effort having said that it could do with a little more cleaning and tweaking.


Grade C-

This trial is okay, However: the story can be hard to follow at times great effort.


D/D+

Hmm, I had to say this trial was very confusing and could not understand the plot at all.
However, I like the idea. Please can you shorten you dialogue to make it easy for people to understand.
Thanks.

Something like that?

The only on I am not sure on now is F how can you tell them that something is not presentable without irking them?
[size=85]Ace Attorney Poem.

What a crime is done.
Gumshoe's has come.
His name is Dick.
It's a point and click.


To find a clue
or maybe a few.
To made your point of view.

In the trial
where every one stares
the judge does glare.


Objections fly from everywhere![/size]
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par Phantom » Jeu Juil 25, 2013 3:03 am

It would be ALOT more detailed than that. You're on the right track though.


Here DK, I just decided giving you a sample graded review works:
http://aceattorney.sparklin.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7027&p=410055#p410055

Btw, this was double checked by at least two other members on AAO.
Notice how he starts with a general thought process (otherwise popularily known here as "stream of concsious" report, AND a bug report). Then he explains his scale, and finally starts with his graded review. The bug report is made as a requirement, but is separate from the review and doesn't impact the review unless the case is unplayable.

It's come a long way since this unreadable(but still detailed) mess:
viewtopic.php?p=339958#p339958
Phantom
 

Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par DKJustice1 » Jeu Juil 25, 2013 2:44 pm

So it like a bit of an essay every comment need and explanation,

In the first bit there is the confirming the resulting review and then like an essay it is split in to chapter.

Hmm, I think you may of converted me it is a very useful system. Indeed it helps to see and example.

In that cause I give this grade an Perfect one: :D :D
[size=85]Ace Attorney Poem.

What a crime is done.
Gumshoe's has come.
His name is Dick.
It's a point and click.


To find a clue
or maybe a few.
To made your point of view.

In the trial
where every one stares
the judge does glare.


Objections fly from everywhere![/size]
Avatar de l’utilisateur
DKJustice1
 
Message(s) : 174
Inscription : Ven Juin 29, 2012 1:44 pm
Genre: Féminin
Langues parlées: English

Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately 

Message par Phantom » Jeu Juil 25, 2013 5:02 pm

In the first bit there is the confirming the resulting review and then like an essay it is split in to chapter.



Yes, that is indeed quite the good analogy!

Thank you or taking the time for hearing me out on this :)



Though if you use it you should be sure to get your reviews checked by another member on AAO before you post one up in a trial thread to ensure objectivity+fairness.
Phantom
 

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