How to Review Trials Appropriately

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mAc Chaos
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by mAc Chaos »

Well, a lot of those things are minor (like spelling mistakes or bugs and such) that ought to get fixed, but basically forcing a cookie cutter formula on everyone is bound to make all the trials the same after a while. I think it's fine to have a good set of guidelines, but just like any set of writing conventions, they can be flouted or turned on their head from time to time.

Although I suppose the goal in the first place is to set a kind of uniformity across the board as far as how the trials operate.
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by Unas »

E.D.Revolution wrote:Now, think about it. Tell me which is worse out of the two scenarios:
Spoiler : Alternative A :
Story: F
This story sucks balls. You can't write for s***. Go die in a hole and never come back!
Spoiler : Alternative B :
Story: F
This story is horribly subpar. When I play this case, I find myself feeling lost a lot of times. The story itself doesn't flow very well and the sequence is confusing. And it looks like a poor attempt at a Quentin Tarantino. Tarantino can do his style of storytelling that because his scenes last long enough to remember the vignettes, so that in the end, everything makes sense. It doesn't quite work for the 1st part of the case unless there's great planning. Also, as a result of this, the dialogue isn't very good. It's incoherent and most of the dialogue is either dry or cheesy. As a result, it's hard to play through the case.
One of the alternatives shows a flaming, destructive post and one of the others shows a critic's view.

You have to account for the user of the system.
...
What's happening here ?
I have never forbidden the use of grading in reviews, to my knowledge. There's no need to go all out in a big argumentation to defend it when it's not being attacked - or do you just love argumentating ? :roll:

It's obviously obvious (=3) that everything depends on the person writing the review, and that's why I'm not forbidding the use of such a grading system at all. I am certain that some people can use it politely to highlight important aspects of a trial.
And your example works precisely because of that : the second example hardly relies on the grade, but instead provides a thorough explanation of what to improve. The grade mostly serves as a way for the author to notice that this aspect of the trial most urgently needs work. In that respect, it is useful.


However, Meph and I feel there are also risks inherent to the use of that system, which is why we asked you to be extra careful when using it.

To clarify, those risks mainly are :
  • First, well, see your first example : people considering the grade is enough, and hardly commenting. Even without the insults, it is still undesirable, as it's only potentially degrading and doesn't bring much information about what to correct.
    My advice to advise that would be : Always consider the grade to sum up part of your review, not to be the core of it. In particular, don't write reviews by first assigning grades, then filling the review with explanative text. You should think about the contents of your review first, and use the grades to sum it up.
  • Second, the fact that grades often implicitly have some kind of objectivity to it. When you grade someone's story with an F, it can easily be interpreted as "your story is just objectively bad". It might be true, but again without explanations it just feels degrading.
    So, two pieces of advice here :
    First, try to keep your grades as "objective" as they will seem. Kind of like a teacher, who is not supposed to say "I don't like this essay, let's give it a bad grade", but rather carefully examine all its qualities and defects before deciding on a grade. If in some part it's unavoidable (like a very original graphic style that you wouldn't like at all but others might enjoy), then make it clear it's a personal opinion.
    And, again, explain as much as possible : if you can convince the author that part of his work is actually bad, he's less likely to take your comment as offensive than if you don't justify.
In short, you should just follow this general rule when using grades :
Explain your grades well and nicely enough to convince the author that you're at least partly right, and to give him enough information to fix it.

And, obviously, don't be patronising in your explanations either...

Is that clearer now ? :)
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by Phantom »

mAc Chaos wrote:Well, a lot of those things are minor (like spelling mistakes or bugs and such) that ought to get fixed, but basically forcing a cookie cutter formula on everyone is bound to make all the trials the same after a while. I think it's fine to have a good set of guidelines, but just like any set of writing conventions, they can be flouted or turned on their head from time to time.

Although I suppose the goal in the first place is to set a kind of uniformity across the board as far as how the trials operate.

Yeah, agreed with minor mistakes (but those are errors that should always be looked out for so it doesn't hurt the experience for the player anyway, that's what bug reports are for :P).

Also agree with forcing people to stick with the same thing over and over. It just hurts authors more than anybody else.
Good point on the uniformity, although I don't necessarily agree with it. There are just some conventions that should always be followed no matter what, but not because it should pass some "test"...Unless specifically done on purpose, it should be because you don't want to throw off the experience for the player who's familiar/used to how said convention is done-aka you should at least feel like you're still playing a fangame with a resemblance to Ace Attorney series, but not some game that merely uses the AAO platform. [Although there can be exceptions I would hope]
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by E.D.Revolution »

@Mac, In one of my more recent reviews, I said to the lines of "If your basics aren't solid, what good is creativity?"

I was outlining creativity under the assumption the basics are sound. It's more of a matter of the author saying "I refuse to change x because it will ruin the y factor of my case" VS the reviewer saying that "You need to change x because it doesn't feel AA at all."

Like Tortured, for example. I was REALLY unwilling to change Blabgovjevich because the joke will be lost, and now that it's featured, it was changed to Canularoff. The joke has been officially lost forever. One of those times where creativity trumps convention. And yet convention made the trial feel too generic. That's my opinion, but you see where you are getting at?

And Unas, you might not be forbidding it but I had the feeling that Meph was not telling the whole story when he posted on the topic...
Also, you repeated much of what I said :P Though personally, the placement of the grade before or after is really a matter of taste so long as the author can see it in the first place. But as long as the grade isn't the focus but supplemented with an very thorough explanation, there shouldn't be too much of a problem with the grade itself. Other than that, most of us can agree to that.
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by Phantom »

Oh, you haven't forbidden it at all Unas? Sweet!

Although I do agree with both you and ED that people should be careful using it (but then again, that's why we have such reviews cross-checked for fairness/check if there's too much harshness), you can say the same thing about all sorts of review systems... But so far, it's been doing well.

Also agreed with the supplement- The grades are just a general indicator that sums up what the reviewer thinks about that aspect of a trial quickly.
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by Meph »

E.D.Revolution wrote:And Unas, you might not be forbidding it but I had the feeling that Meph was not telling the whole story when he posted on the topic...
Sorry. No, I wasn't implying that it was forbidden. ;) Basically, I was just saying that people need to be careful when they give a score. Unas explained it better than I did.
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by E.D.Revolution »

Oh, wait... I must've misread some posts. :XD:

But in any case, it should be a given that reviews carry a lot of responsibility.
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by Unas »

E.D.Revolution wrote:And Unas, you might not be forbidding it but I had the feeling that Meph was not telling the whole story when he posted on the topic...
Well, Meph did have concerns about the grading system and we discussed a little about them a few weeks ago, but we've both decided that just a reminder to be careful with it should be enough.
And I think Meph's post, saying "if you plan on using this system for reviews, make sure that bad grades are backed up with constructive criticism", made it clear it was not forbidden (=3)

But anyway, if we all agree on the fact that a reviewer should always justify criticism and keep the author's interests and sensibility in mind, then we're all good. :)
E.D.Revolution wrote:Though personally, the placement of the grade before or after is really a matter of taste so long as the author can see it in the first place.
Well, I don't really care about the order in which it appears - I meant more about the order in which it is thought.

If you write an extensive review beforehand, you're examining all aspects of the trial in a rather neutral way, and you can then evaluate the grades with as much "objectivity" as possible.
On the contrary, if you decide on the grades just from your feelings at the end of your first playthrough, they are hardly objective at all; plus, it's likely to condition the way you'll write the review itself.
That's what I meant ;-)
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by mAc Chaos »

My grade for this thread: F MINUS
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by clcman »

Can you give some constructive criticism to go along with that grade?
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by E.D.Revolution »

Can we label this "How to use the quantative system to grade trials" Instead of the current title, since this is only about one type of review system? Also, can we put up the discussion on the front post?
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by CardiaX »

Yeah, you're probably right. Topic re-labelled.
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by Darksuperchaossonic »

Akamia wrote:About those choppy internet fads... Would there be an exception if Sal Manella was in the case?

I mean, he's pretty much the exception that proves the rule in the official games, anyway. xD
Yeah, but Sal said "WTF" in the originals.

...Makes me think, Capcom. just what do you think WTF means?

:manella:
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by Phantom »

Whoa totally off-topic and necro'd!
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Re: How to Review Trials Appropriately

Post by DKJustice1 »

May I make a comment?

I have notice that even though some people don't often agree on this form there is a lot of respect:
for the people who write and grade threads. However, though I can say grading may get in the way of the fun of this
game. The reason is people are far too easy to offend now a days.

Rather apt to jump to the wrong end of the thread this could resulting in a low grade to lead to arguments. Unfortunately. This could
lead to insults and rather rude comments. The best example of this is at the start of this thread.

Hope you don't mind but I am not going to use this system for that reason. Everyone is equal then and that is all.
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Objections fly from everywhere!
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