[T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆

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[T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Gamer2002 » Dim Avr 22, 2018 11:21 pm

Turnabout Trickery

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This case is set in canon.

Play it
(old beta)


Spoiler : guide :
1st Session

1st Rebuttal
Press 2nd statement -> Meeting Photo revealed
Press 6th statement -> 11th statement added
Present Meeting Photo on the 11th statement

2nd Rebuttal
Present Transcript Fragments on 4th statement

Select Killer took the card

Present Phoenix Wright

Select To help the killer

Name the real killer -> Present Kristoph Gavin, it’s funnier

Present Card Bottle

Present Autopsy Report

Present Attorney Badge

Present Olga Orly

Present Kristoph Gavin

2nd Session

Wright’s CE
Press 4th statement -> Claim falsehood -> Present Missing Locket -> Present Transcript Fragments -> Select He won it -> Present Trucy Wright -> Statements 2th to 4th removed
Press 7th statement (4th, after statements removal) -> Claim falsehood -> Select Blood falling on the card -> Select Wright calling the police -> Present Trucy Wright or Transcript Fragments -> Present Card Bottle or Meeting Photo -> Statements 5th to 7th removed
After removing statements from 2th to 7th, CE is over.

Present Kurain Village Flyer

Present Wright

2nd Wright’s CE
Present Bloody Ace on 4th statement

Select Cards

Type “♠A ♠A ♠A ♠A ♠A” (no quotation marks, no additional spaces anywhere)

Present Bloody Ace

Present the only evidence needed here


Spoiler : graphic credits :
Hesseldahl
Tap
ApolloGrimoire
LawfulMagician
AABattery
Blackrune
Sligneris
Lind





If you find bugs or some wonky grammar, consider this a beta version.
Dernière édition par Gamer2002 le Mer Juin 13, 2018 10:48 pm, édité 1 fois.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ● 

Message par Mustafa Elaam » Ven Mai 11, 2018 1:41 am

HOLY SHIT! this case is brilliant! I'll headcanon this as the fifth case of Apollo Justice now.
But I wonder how does the bad ending look like? By bad ending I'm referring to
Spoiler : :
If you choose Wright as the forger of the bloody ace.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ● 

Message par Gamer2002 » Ven Mai 11, 2018 7:50 am

Glad you liked it, and well, I did say it is set in canon ;)

As for the possible "bad ending"

Spoiler : :
But Wright IS the forger of the ace :^)

Jk, I get what you mean. If you did accuse Phoenix there, you know what happens - the judge notices all the problems with it and Apollo is asked the question again.

Besides, from the start Apollo already knew everything, aside from Edgeworth's position about the ace and anything about the judge. He already had the blood on the card analyzed and knew of Trucy's escape from Zak.

But if Themis wasn't competent and Apollo actually accused Phoenix... Nothing would change, only Trucy would be lured out a bit earlier. She would testify about getting the real card from Phoniex, point out all the issues of Phoenix forging the card herself, insist that Phoenix is covering for Apollo presenting fake evidence and keep the rest of her testimony the same. At that point, Phoenix would withdraw his confession, probably pulling a drunkard act, and leave things to Trucy.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Bad Player » Jeu Mai 17, 2018 5:20 am

☆ This case is pending a QA inspection to be featured.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Bad Player » Lun Mai 28, 2018 10:27 pm

Spoiler : CHECK 1 :
its fine

Spoiler : CHECK 2 :
Presentation & Bugs / Sprites & Graphics:
Pretty much clear! Occasionally the bench/witness stand would disappear for a frame… but this was only every once in a while, and could just be the player’s fault. If you happen to see one of these, you should fix it… but it’s minor, so don’t worry too much about it. Sprites and graphics are otherwise fine. You used mostly canon sprites, and all the custom edits were of good quality. You did a great of going further beyond the canon games when you had multiple sprites at once. You also front-facing sprites when people should be facing sideways or vice versa at appropriate times to convey physical movement.

Writing & Characterization:
This was generally strong, although there are a few places that I think it needs some touch-ups.

First, Edgeworth was too informal too often. This was especially true whenever the topic of Phoenix came up… No matter what happened between them seven years ago, I don’t think Edgeworth would ever refer to Phoenix as “Just a guy who bluffs a lot.” If nothing else, he would at least use “man” instead of “guy.” (I know this line comes back later, and it’s awesome… but it’s just too OOC the first time around.) I would go through and try to tighten up Edgeworth’s dialogue a little bit. Kristoph also has a handful of lines that I think are a bit too informal, but Edgeworth is much more problematic.

Second, Trucy’s entire trial basically needs to be revised. The things everyone says are fine, they just need to be rephrased a bit. (Note that I said “revised,” not “rewritten.”) It’s just bizarre for everyone to start screaming clauses instead of speaking in sentences—especially formal, eloquent characters like Themis and Edgeworth. If you want to emphasize one or two frames by writing in that style, but it just feels weird when the whole section is written like that.

Besides that, writing was fine! All characters were within the bounds of canon characterization, even if it wasn’t always the way I interpreted them. Your ideas were punchy and witty, but they were marred by near constant typos and awkward phrasings… but we’ll get to that in a later section. Using [bracketed text] also broke the immersion a bit… but I think you went right up to the acceptable amount.

Also this is pure genius.

Case Logic:
First, random comments/nitpicks:

Couldn’t the fact that they took the victim’s locket with the picture of his daughter (which would provide an angle for police to investigate his identity) suggest Kristoph and Phoenix didn’t want the victim’s identity revealed? (If you want the player to continue on the “proper” path, you could have Themis smack this down by pointing out that the locket hasn’t been accepted as proper evidence for this appeal, and even though the court has accepted that the victim had A disappearing locket, Apollo hasn’t proven that it had a photo of Trucy or that it was Phoenix/Kristoph who took it.)

“Mr. Wright could potentially face a death sentence for Gavin's crime. He'd die for his life being saved.” Please rephrase this into an actual question or request. We can respond to questions and requests; it’s more difficult to respond to mere statements.

You should have Apollo explicitly claim/explain (even in internal monologue, to keep it from Kristoph) that’s he’s arguing that the video Phoenix is intending to present is a fake created after Zak’s death with Pearl. The way it is, it’s not totally clear, and almost sounds like it was the agreement to duel for Trucy that was done after the fact… This part needs to be clarified a bit. (I would also elaborate upon Zak’s confession a bit, since it was a relatively small plot point in AJ and players may have forgotten about it.)

You should also clarify and foreshadow the DD Act. The explanation goes by pretty quickly, and it’s not really totally clear how it’ll affect and help Trucy, so… this should be clarified a bit. As for foreshadowing, I get that it’s your tie-in to Blackquill, but it kind of comes out of nowhere and feels almost like a deus ex machina. I would bring it up when introducing Edgeworth as Chief Prosecutor and/or when Themis “threatens” Edgeworth regarding his prestige. (Additionally, when it gets mentioned the first time, you could also have Kristoph act intrigued/confused about it and Apollo NOT look confused, to further foreshadow that Apollo knows about it.)

I would also try to clarify the segment where Apollo argues that Kristoph and Phoenix were working together. In this segment Apollo is just coming up with whatever nonsense he can to continue the trial, so it’s okay if it’s a bit muddy, but I’d try to make it a shade or two clearer.

Finally, at the end, it’s a bit silly for the characters to just go “it was Polly’s first trial, we can’t hold him responsible lol.” Maybe Edgeworth (and that’s a HUGE maybe), but it seems extraordinarily unlikely for the judge. Instead, to me it makes more sense to just say that even if Polly made a mistake, that doesn’t translate into guilt for Trucy.

Now, general comments:

Turnabout Trickery is like a “case 5” for Apollo Justice that attempts to resolve some of its plot threads and plot holes while transitioning into Dual Destinies. And it does it wonderfully. You take the (now, I think, relatively popular?) fan-theory that it was Trucy who forged the ace in 4-1—and take it way farther than anyone else I’ve seen, while bringing in a bunch of other plot elements. The case builds upon and comports with the existing games in a way that is clever and adds depth.

This is a case that, at first glance, seems like it’s just going to be going over what happened in one of the canon tutorial cases—so the fact that you were able to keep what is effectively a retrial so engaging is truly impressive.

Proofreading & Clarification:
This… is where you need the most work. From just the beginning:
260: dept --> debt
249: wouldn’t --> would
74: a strict --> strictly
117: I’d put quotes around “Shadi”
121: begin --> am beginning
142: disposed --> disposed of
145: tell the truth already --> just tell the truth; you’ve --> you had
148: his --> my (I think?)
152: sir --> Sir
155: resolving --> resorting
167: tell --> told; I wouldn’t get --> avoided
182: paranoic --> paranoid
206: whenever I know --> I know whenever
389: called --> called the
230: no one else, but --> none other than
390: there --> at the restaurant (right now it almost sounds like you’re talking about Phoenix’s trial)
413: four cards --> four of the cards
420: using the “proving it” card --> “prove” it with the card
424: I’ve proven --> I proved
428: also he’s --> Mr. Edgeworth himself is
442: out you --> you out
452: now it --> it now
456: testimonies --> the testimonies
464: smuck --> shmuck; a --> the
465: Just replace the first half with “That’s how you refer to your rival?”
470: chic --> chit
474: testimonies --> the testimonies
I’m not going to be pointing out the errors from here on out. Please get a proofreader and iron out the rest of the script on your own. (Including the penalty conversations!)
Also please note that the character’s name is Spark Brushel.

Two other general grammar comments. First, capitalization; nicknames should be capitalized when used in place of a name. For example, “Daddy” should be capitalized when Trucy calls Phoenix that. The rule of thumb is that it should be capitalized if you could replace it with the person’s name and the sentence would still hold. For instance, in “I think Daddy went to the store,” “Daddy” is capitalized because you could replace it with “Phoenix,” but in the sentence “I think my daddy went to the story,” “daddy” is not capitalized because you could not replace it with “Phoenix.” And second, you don’t need a space after an ellipsis when the ellipsis begins a sentence/textbox.

Music & Sound Effects:
I would add sfx at frame ~3217.

I think you also need a “Take that!” sfx when you say Trucy forged the ace. (If you were trying to do something special… it fell flat. If you really want to have no sound, try adding a short pause after the present where the “Take that!” would be.)

Besides that, sfx were used appropriately and music was generally fitting. There were a couple of short segments without music that I thought could have used some, but that might have messed with the timing of the previous or subsequent tracks, so it’s not that big a deal. The only other comment I’d make is that the music for the few two testimonies might be a bit too intense for being the first two testimonies… but that’s up to you.

i hope my 'check 1' didn't make you think you weren't getting a thorough review

Spoiler : nothing important in this one, you probably don't even need to click it :
★ The case is good enough to be featured. Please make the requested changes.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Gamer2002 » Mar Mai 29, 2018 12:28 am

Replies underscored.

Bad Player a écrit :
Spoiler : CHECK 2 :
Writing & Characterization:
This was generally strong, although there are a few places that I think it needs some touch-ups.

First, Edgeworth was too informal too often. This was especially true whenever the topic of Phoenix came up… No matter what happened between them seven years ago, I don’t think Edgeworth would ever refer to Phoenix as “Just a guy who bluffs a lot.” If nothing else, he would at least use “man” instead of “guy.” (I know this line comes back later, and it’s awesome… but it’s just too OOC the first time around.) I would go through and try to tighten up Edgeworth’s dialogue a little bit. Kristoph also has a handful of lines that I think are a bit too informal, but Edgeworth is much more problematic.

I guess. With the "guy" part I wanted Edgy to sound dismissive of Phoenix. Despite him genuinely wanting to help Nick, Edgy didn't like at all everything he realized about "Phoenix's" methods, while still not seeing himself as really worth judging Phoenix.

Second, Trucy’s entire trial basically needs to be revised. The things everyone says are fine, they just need to be rephrased a bit. (Note that I said “revised,” not “rewritten.”) It’s just bizarre for everyone to start screaming clauses instead of speaking in sentences—especially formal, eloquent characters like Themis and Edgeworth. If you want to emphasize one or two frames by writing in that style, but it just feels weird when the whole section is written like that.

They all are forced to shout because Klavier blasts the entire courtroom with his music to make Apollo's big moment shine more (Themis and Edgy just roll with it, at this point). I guess Kristoph should additionally whine that they all are forced to shout because of the music, before Klavier reveals himself. Maybe also Klavier should add something like "Hope y'all are ready to scream, as I'm gonna play it LOUDER!!

Besides that, writing was fine! All characters were within the bounds of canon characterization, even if it wasn’t always the way I interpreted them. Your ideas were punchy and witty, but they were marred by near constant typos and awkward phrasings… but we’ll get to that in a later section. Using [bracketed text] also broke the immersion a bit… but I think you went right up to the acceptable amount.

Did I use it anywhere else besides [SCREAMING INTERNALLY] and that one penalty where the joke was that I'd left writing notes?

Also this is pure genius.

I mean, after DD and SoJ openly contradicted with Phoenix's chessmaster status, there was only one working explanation - it was always bullshit ;D
Especially with Phoenix's tendency of drinking alcohol being canonically suggested in 6-5 >]


Case Logic:
First, random comments/nitpicks:

Couldn’t the fact that they took the victim’s locket with the picture of his daughter (which would provide an angle for police to investigate his identity) suggest Kristoph and Phoenix didn’t want the victim’s identity revealed? (If you want the player to continue on the “proper” path, you could have Themis smack this down by pointing out that the locket hasn’t been accepted as proper evidence for this appeal, and even though the court has accepted that the victim had A disappearing locket, Apollo hasn’t proven that it had a photo of Trucy or that it was Phoenix/Kristoph who took it.)

I can make this non-penalizing option

“Mr. Wright could potentially face a death sentence for Gavin's crime. He'd die for his life being saved.” Please rephrase this into an actual question or request. We can respond to questions and requests; it’s more difficult to respond to mere statements.

Ok

You should have Apollo explicitly claim/explain (even in internal monologue, to keep it from Kristoph) that’s he’s arguing that the video Phoenix is intending to present is a fake created after Zak’s death with Pearl. The way it is, it’s not totally clear, and almost sounds like it was the agreement to duel for Trucy that was done after the fact… This part needs to be clarified a bit. (I would also elaborate upon Zak’s confession a bit, since it was a relatively small plot point in AJ and players may have forgotten about it.)

Ok, maybe one black frame with sad Shadi on it and Apollo narrating about Phoenix telling him that Zak felt sorry for Valant and made a fake confession.

You should also clarify and foreshadow the DD Act. The explanation goes by pretty quickly, and it’s not really totally clear how it’ll affect and help Trucy, so… this should be clarified a bit. As for foreshadowing, I get that it’s your tie-in to Blackquill, but it kind of comes out of nowhere and feels almost like a deus ex machina. I would bring it up when introducing Edgeworth as Chief Prosecutor and/or when Themis “threatens” Edgeworth regarding his prestige. (Additionally, when it gets mentioned the first time, you could also have Kristoph act intrigued/confused about it and Apollo NOT look confused, to further foreshadow that Apollo knows about it.)

Can do

I would also try to clarify the segment where Apollo argues that Kristoph and Phoenix were working together. In this segment Apollo is just coming up with whatever nonsense he can to continue the trial, so it’s okay if it’s a bit muddy, but I’d try to make it a shade or two clearer.

You mean Phoenix's CE, yes?

Finally, at the end, it’s a bit silly for the characters to just go “it was Polly’s first trial, we can’t hold him responsible lol.” Maybe Edgeworth (and that’s a HUGE maybe), but it seems extraordinarily unlikely for the judge. Instead, to me it makes more sense to just say that even if Polly made a mistake, that doesn’t translate into guilt for Trucy.

Well, as I recall, there is room for some line like "And not Trucy's fault anyway!". But that part was a joke that Apollo's big final argument was that he was just being incompetent and dumb during 4-1. Themis rolled with it, because she already knew that the card never was accepted as evidence. Maybe Themis should also add that Phoenix immediately disqualified the card as evidence by stating "I found it, gave it to Trucy and she gave it to my lawyer", which was too ridiculous even for AA standards.

Now, general comments:

Turnabout Trickery is like a “case 5” for Apollo Justice that attempts to resolve some of its plot threads and plot holes while transitioning into Dual Destinies. And it does it wonderfully. You take the (now, I think, relatively popular?) fan-theory that it was Trucy who forged the ace in 4-1—and take it way farther than anyone else I’ve seen, while bringing in a bunch of other plot elements. The case builds upon and comports with the existing games in a way that is clever and adds depth.

I think that it was always writers' intention that Trucy was the forger. Phoenix called it "a naughty magician's trick" and he never once referred himself as such. Neither he really could fake the card by himself. And there was stuff like Trucy acting like her role in 4-1 didn't happen or, supposedly, not having any idea who prosecuted her father... Though, on the other hand, I also think that AJ was a case of writers dropping all the inital ideas and/or leaving too many of them for a sequel that did not happen. But the ace never being touched on after 4-2 was just dropping a ball on the subject.
Really, revisiting AJ, for the sake of this case, made me consider Turnabout Succession as the worst finale in the entire franchise. I could write a book about it.


This is a case that, at first glance, seems like it’s just going to be going over what happened in one of the canon tutorial cases—so the fact that you were able to keep what is effectively a retrial so engaging is truly impressive.

Proofreading & Clarification:
This… is where you need the most work. From just the beginning:
260: dept --> debt
249: wouldn’t --> would
74: a strict --> strictly
117: I’d put quotes around “Shadi”
121: begin --> am beginning
142: disposed --> disposed of
145: tell the truth already --> just tell the truth; you’ve --> you had
148: his --> my (I think?)
152: sir --> Sir
155: resolving --> resorting
167: tell --> told; I wouldn’t get --> avoided
182: paranoic --> paranoid
206: whenever I know --> I know whenever
389: called --> called the
230: no one else, but --> none other than
390: there --> at the restaurant (right now it almost sounds like you’re talking about Phoenix’s trial)
413: four cards --> four of the cards
420: using the “proving it” card --> “prove” it with the card
424: I’ve proven --> I proved
428: also he’s --> Mr. Edgeworth himself is
442: out you --> you out
452: now it --> it now
456: testimonies --> the testimonies
464: smuck --> shmuck; a --> the
465: Just replace the first half with “That’s how you refer to your rival?”
470: chic --> chit
474: testimonies --> the testimonies
I’m not going to be pointing out the errors from here on out. Please get a proofreader and iron out the rest of the script on your own. (Including the penalty conversations!)
Also please note that the character’s name is Spark Brushel.

My sole proofreader left me very quickly, though he did make some improvements ;P
Though, when I recently replayed Confessed Turnabout Part 2, I noticed that I did make some improvement since then. But yeah, me is still me.


Two other general grammar comments. First, capitalization; nicknames should be capitalized when used in place of a name. For example, “Daddy” should be capitalized when Trucy calls Phoenix that. The rule of thumb is that it should be capitalized if you could replace it with the person’s name and the sentence would still hold. For instance, in “I think Daddy went to the store,” “Daddy” is capitalized because you could replace it with “Phoenix,” but in the sentence “I think my daddy went to the story,” “daddy” is not capitalized because you could not replace it with “Phoenix.” And second, you don’t need a space after an ellipsis when the ellipsis begins a sentence/textbox.

Music & Sound Effects:
I would add sfx at frame ~3217.

I think you also need a “Take that!” sfx when you say Trucy forged the ace. (If you were trying to do something special… it fell flat. If you really want to have no sound, try adding a short pause after the present where the “Take that!” would be.)

I'll add the short pause then. I don't feel like Take That is proper there. Big dramatic build up, Phoenix is all "It was me! It was me!" and then Apollo is "No, it was just her".

Besides that, sfx were used appropriately and music was generally fitting. There were a couple of short segments without music that I thought could have used some, but that might have messed with the timing of the previous or subsequent tracks, so it’s not that big a deal. The only other comment I’d make is that the music for the few two testimonies might be a bit too intense for being the first two testimonies… but that’s up to you.

Moderato is used for the opening statement, and first testimony is obviously more intense than that. As for the second, it was Edgeworth giving a perfect closing argument that had already ended Gavin's original trial and wrapped up everything that happened into one perfect truth... Until Apollo twisted everything by starting bringing up lies.

i hope my 'check 1' didn't make you think you weren't getting a thorough review


I guess I have some fixes to do here and there, though I don't think I can do much about grammar on my own.

Well then. Who wanna proofread to-be-featured trial and join me in my glory? =P
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Bad Player » Mer Mai 30, 2018 4:57 am

Responses in red.

Spoiler : CHECK 2 :
Writing & Characterization:
This was generally strong, although there are a few places that I think it needs some touch-ups.

First, Edgeworth was too informal too often. This was especially true whenever the topic of Phoenix came up… No matter what happened between them seven years ago, I don’t think Edgeworth would ever refer to Phoenix as “Just a guy who bluffs a lot.” If nothing else, he would at least use “man” instead of “guy.” (I know this line comes back later, and it’s awesome… but it’s just too OOC the first time around.) I would go through and try to tighten up Edgeworth’s dialogue a little bit. Kristoph also has a handful of lines that I think are a bit too informal, but Edgeworth is much more problematic.

I guess. With the "guy" part I wanted Edgy to sound dismissive of Phoenix. Despite him genuinely wanting to help Nick, Edgy didn't like at all everything he realized about "Phoenix's" methods, while still not seeing himself as really worth judging Phoenix.
There's a difference between "dismissive" and "informal." Edgeworth's speech veers a bit too close to the latter.

Second, Trucy’s entire trial basically needs to be revised. The things everyone says are fine, they just need to be rephrased a bit. (Note that I said “revised,” not “rewritten.”) It’s just bizarre for everyone to start screaming clauses instead of speaking in sentences—especially formal, eloquent characters like Themis and Edgeworth. If you want to emphasize one or two frames by writing in that style, but it just feels weird when the whole section is written like that.

They all are forced to shout because Klavier blasts the entire courtroom with his music to make Apollo's big moment shine more (Themis and Edgy just roll with it, at this point). I guess Kristoph should additionally whine that they all are forced to shout because of the music, before Klavier reveals himself. Maybe also Klavier should add something like "Hope y'all are ready to scream, as I'm gonna play it LOUDER!!
Huuuh... That didn't really come across to me. Instead you could try something like:
[music starts]
Kristoph (grey text): What in the world is that infernal racket?
Apollo: You gotta! Speak up!
Kristoph: What is that racket?!
Apollo: You don't recognize! Your own brother's music?!
and continue in your script from there. It also still seems unlikely for Edgeworth and Themis to just join in like this... If you can maybe make their dialogue a bit more restrained, even if they have to shout...? To be completely honest, I'm still not convinced about this segment, but I'll see what you can do with it.


Besides that, writing was fine! All characters were within the bounds of canon characterization, even if it wasn’t always the way I interpreted them. Your ideas were punchy and witty, but they were marred by near constant typos and awkward phrasings… but we’ll get to that in a later section. Using [bracketed text] also broke the immersion a bit… but I think you went right up to the acceptable amount.

Did I use it anywhere else besides [SCREAMING INTERNALLY] and that one penalty where the joke was that I'd left writing notes?
No, but if you had done it any more I'd be telling you to cut back. It's a bit funny, but it's a huge immersion-killer.

Also this is pure genius.

I mean, after DD and SoJ openly contradicted with Phoenix's chessmaster status, there was only one working explanation - it was always bullshit ;D
Especially with Phoenix's tendency of drinking alcohol being canonically suggested in 6-5 >]


Case Logic:
First, random comments/nitpicks:

Couldn’t the fact that they took the victim’s locket with the picture of his daughter (which would provide an angle for police to investigate his identity) suggest Kristoph and Phoenix didn’t want the victim’s identity revealed? (If you want the player to continue on the “proper” path, you could have Themis smack this down by pointing out that the locket hasn’t been accepted as proper evidence for this appeal, and even though the court has accepted that the victim had A disappearing locket, Apollo hasn’t proven that it had a photo of Trucy or that it was Phoenix/Kristoph who took it.)

I can make this non-penalizing option

“Mr. Wright could potentially face a death sentence for Gavin's crime. He'd die for his life being saved.” Please rephrase this into an actual question or request. We can respond to questions and requests; it’s more difficult to respond to mere statements.

Ok

You should have Apollo explicitly claim/explain (even in internal monologue, to keep it from Kristoph) that’s he’s arguing that the video Phoenix is intending to present is a fake created after Zak’s death with Pearl. The way it is, it’s not totally clear, and almost sounds like it was the agreement to duel for Trucy that was done after the fact… This part needs to be clarified a bit. (I would also elaborate upon Zak’s confession a bit, since it was a relatively small plot point in AJ and players may have forgotten about it.)

Ok, maybe one black frame with sad Shadi on it and Apollo narrating about Phoenix telling him that Zak felt sorry for Valant and made a fake confession.

You should also clarify and foreshadow the DD Act. The explanation goes by pretty quickly, and it’s not really totally clear how it’ll affect and help Trucy, so… this should be clarified a bit. As for foreshadowing, I get that it’s your tie-in to Blackquill, but it kind of comes out of nowhere and feels almost like a deus ex machina. I would bring it up when introducing Edgeworth as Chief Prosecutor and/or when Themis “threatens” Edgeworth regarding his prestige. (Additionally, when it gets mentioned the first time, you could also have Kristoph act intrigued/confused about it and Apollo NOT look confused, to further foreshadow that Apollo knows about it.)

Can do

I would also try to clarify the segment where Apollo argues that Kristoph and Phoenix were working together. In this segment Apollo is just coming up with whatever nonsense he can to continue the trial, so it’s okay if it’s a bit muddy, but I’d try to make it a shade or two clearer.

You mean Phoenix's CE, yes?
ya

Finally, at the end, it’s a bit silly for the characters to just go “it was Polly’s first trial, we can’t hold him responsible lol.” Maybe Edgeworth (and that’s a HUGE maybe), but it seems extraordinarily unlikely for the judge. Instead, to me it makes more sense to just say that even if Polly made a mistake, that doesn’t translate into guilt for Trucy.

Well, as I recall, there is room for some line like "And not Trucy's fault anyway!". But that part was a joke that Apollo's big final argument was that he was just being incompetent and dumb during 4-1. Themis rolled with it, because she already knew that the card never was accepted as evidence. Maybe Themis should also add that Phoenix immediately disqualified the card as evidence by stating "I found it, gave it to Trucy and she gave it to my lawyer", which was too ridiculous even for AA standards.
Hmm, that joke didn't really come across to me. And someone as no-nonsense as Themis didn't seem like the type to just play along with it. The argument might be valid because Polly's mistake shouldn't mean guilt for Trucy--but Themis needs to accept that argument, not "we'll cut you some slack cuz it was ur first trial." Also, if you want it to be a joke that Apollo's crowning argument of awesome is arguing for his own incompetence, I think it'd help if you were a bit more direct in the punchline. (Apollo or Edgey would probably be the best character to deliver it.)

Now, general comments:

Turnabout Trickery is like a “case 5” for Apollo Justice that attempts to resolve some of its plot threads and plot holes while transitioning into Dual Destinies. And it does it wonderfully. You take the (now, I think, relatively popular?) fan-theory that it was Trucy who forged the ace in 4-1—and take it way farther than anyone else I’ve seen, while bringing in a bunch of other plot elements. The case builds upon and comports with the existing games in a way that is clever and adds depth.

I think that it was always writers' intention that Trucy was the forger. Phoenix called it "a naughty magician's trick" and he never once referred himself as such. Neither he really could fake the card by himself. And there was stuff like Trucy acting like her role in 4-1 didn't happen or, supposedly, not having any idea who prosecuted her father... Though, on the other hand, I also think that AJ was a case of writers dropping all the inital ideas and/or leaving too many of them for a sequel that did not happen. But the ace never being touched on after 4-2 was just dropping a ball on the subject.
Really, revisiting AJ, for the sake of this case, made me consider Turnabout Succession as the worst finale in the entire franchise. I could write a book about it.


This is a case that, at first glance, seems like it’s just going to be going over what happened in one of the canon tutorial cases—so the fact that you were able to keep what is effectively a retrial so engaging is truly impressive.

Proofreading & Clarification:
This… is where you need the most work. From just the beginning:
260: dept --> debt
249: wouldn’t --> would
74: a strict --> strictly
117: I’d put quotes around “Shadi”
121: begin --> am beginning
142: disposed --> disposed of
145: tell the truth already --> just tell the truth; you’ve --> you had
148: his --> my (I think?)
152: sir --> Sir
155: resolving --> resorting
167: tell --> told; I wouldn’t get --> avoided
182: paranoic --> paranoid
206: whenever I know --> I know whenever
389: called --> called the
230: no one else, but --> none other than
390: there --> at the restaurant (right now it almost sounds like you’re talking about Phoenix’s trial)
413: four cards --> four of the cards
420: using the “proving it” card --> “prove” it with the card
424: I’ve proven --> I proved
428: also he’s --> Mr. Edgeworth himself is
442: out you --> you out
452: now it --> it now
456: testimonies --> the testimonies
464: smuck --> shmuck; a --> the
465: Just replace the first half with “That’s how you refer to your rival?”
470: chic --> chit
474: testimonies --> the testimonies
I’m not going to be pointing out the errors from here on out. Please get a proofreader and iron out the rest of the script on your own. (Including the penalty conversations!)
Also please note that the character’s name is Spark Brushel.

My sole proofreader left me very quickly, though he did make some improvements ;P
Though, when I recently replayed Confessed Turnabout Part 2, I noticed that I did make some improvement since then. But yeah, me is still me.


Two other general grammar comments. First, capitalization; nicknames should be capitalized when used in place of a name. For example, “Daddy” should be capitalized when Trucy calls Phoenix that. The rule of thumb is that it should be capitalized if you could replace it with the person’s name and the sentence would still hold. For instance, in “I think Daddy went to the store,” “Daddy” is capitalized because you could replace it with “Phoenix,” but in the sentence “I think my daddy went to the story,” “daddy” is not capitalized because you could not replace it with “Phoenix.” And second, you don’t need a space after an ellipsis when the ellipsis begins a sentence/textbox.

Music & Sound Effects:
I would add sfx at frame ~3217.

I think you also need a “Take that!” sfx when you say Trucy forged the ace. (If you were trying to do something special… it fell flat. If you really want to have no sound, try adding a short pause after the present where the “Take that!” would be.)

I'll add the short pause then. I don't feel like Take That is proper there. Big dramatic build up, Phoenix is all "It was me! It was me!" and then Apollo is "No, it was just her".
Yeah, that's fine. Just immediately going into Apollo's explanation didn't feel right; adding a pause should at least add some weight to the moment, which is what I think you were going for anyway.

Besides that, sfx were used appropriately and music was generally fitting. There were a couple of short segments without music that I thought could have used some, but that might have messed with the timing of the previous or subsequent tracks, so it’s not that big a deal. The only other comment I’d make is that the music for the few two testimonies might be a bit too intense for being the first two testimonies… but that’s up to you.

Moderato is used for the opening statement, and first testimony is obviously more intense than that. As for the second, it was Edgeworth giving a perfect closing argument that had already ended Gavin's original trial and wrapped up everything that happened into one perfect truth... Until Apollo twisted everything by starting bringing up lies.
It isn't really a "perfect" closing argument... you can find the problem pretty easily. IIRC, the first rebuttal had an orchestration, which might technically be "moderato" (I don't even remember if it is) but sounds a lot like "allegro," and the second one goes immediately into presto. You can justify it however you want, but ramping up into presto in your first two testimonies is undoubtedly intense. You can have a trial where it's that intense at the very beginning, but... that just isn't this trial.

i hope my 'check 1' didn't make you think you weren't getting a thorough review
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Tap » Mer Mai 30, 2018 3:24 pm

A wonderfully presented case, full of surprises and its fair share of "trickery", one might say, ha ha.

Spoiler : case :
I enjoyed every moment of it, especially the fact that throwaway lines from 4-1 end up being highly relevant. The only issue I had, was with the Kurain Village flyer. It was a fantastic "cross-examination", don't get me wrong. I absolutely love the idea that Wright had Shadi/Zak channelled in order to effectively re-stage a past event for their benefit, but something is missing. There is no real effective segue into introducing Kurain. The players know Wright's story, and Apollo presumably does as well, but that's where the issue is - we don't know for certain what Apollo knows. I can't really think of any elegant solutions, bar some kind of interlude episode or exposition at the beginning, but just my two thoughts. It doesn't detract entirely, but I'm just being nitpick here.


Congratulations on the soon to be featured trial status; it is well deserving!
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par ned63 » Jeu Mai 31, 2018 4:17 pm

I loved this case so much.

Spoiler : play the game first :
The plot was great. I always love seeing the "trucy forged the bloody ace" theory in fan cases and this implementation of it is by far my favorite. I loved the characterization for Kristoph at the end, though I thought it was a a bit hard to follow may just be me being stupid though, it makes him far more interesting and even makes the Black Locks make sense whilst DD kind of just retconned what black locks mean. Same for why the Jurist System isn't even acknowledged in DD. I loved all of the references to past and future cases/games; they were all well done and didn't feel out of place to me. Phoenix's "the man who masterminded your game" line was amazing. I loved how we got Kristoph screaming "Justice" in this breakdown.
There were quite a few grammatical/spelling errors (to name a few, when Apollo was going on about honesty, it kept on being spelt as "honestly" I believe, also when they talk about how Zak sat on his chair when he was killed they say "sit" instead of the past tense a lot) but ultimately they weren't anything to the point where it really detracted from the experience, though they did break the immersion slightly.
I also think going into the case knowing that it fits into the current canon of the games really added a lot to the case whilst going through it.
I mostly really enjoyed all the characters- maybe Edgeworth was a little off, but for the most part everything was solid.

I could go on for ages, but at the end of it all, this is one of my favorite cases out of the many I've played. I genuinely wish it was canon- it's a great Rise from the Ashes for Apollo. Damn good stuff.

i would appreciate some more clarification about the post-trial scene and especially the post-credits scene though, this stuff is complicated
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Gamer2002 » Ven Juin 01, 2018 1:17 am

Replies in bold

Bad Player a écrit :
Spoiler : CHECK 2 :
There's a difference between "dismissive" and "informal." Edgeworth's speech veers a bit too close to the latter.

Ok. I'll rewrite his lines, though "a guy that just bluffs a lot" is pretty important line. But I guess I can keep it by making him say "My view of him is rather more akin to those calling him 'a guy that just bluffs a lot'".

Huuuh... That didn't really come across to me. Instead you could try something like:
[music starts]
Kristoph (grey text): What in the world is that infernal racket?
Apollo: You gotta! Speak up!
Kristoph: What is that racket?!
Apollo: You don't recognize! Your own brother's music?!
and continue in your script from there. It also still seems unlikely for Edgeworth and Themis to just join in like this... If you can maybe make their dialogue a bit more restrained, even if they have to shout...? To be completely honest, I'm still not convinced about this segment, but I'll see what you can do with it.


Edgy went through a parrot testifying during his own trial, as for Themis... I'll have Kristoph accusing her for blatant favoritism. She was hyped for the opening statement ;]
But I'll see what else can be done.


It isn't really a "perfect" closing argument... you can find the problem pretty easily. IIRC, the first rebuttal had an orchestration, which might technically be "moderato" (I don't even remember if it is) but sounds a lot like "allegro," and the second one goes immediately into presto. You can justify it however you want, but ramping up into presto in your first two testimonies is undoubtedly intense. You can have a trial where it's that intense at the very beginning, but... that just isn't this trial.

It's "perfect" in sense of being 100% true and accurate. Apollo and the player can immediately spot the contradiction, but for literally everyone else Edgy was being the coolest guy in the room delivering his argument that had already won this case. I picked presto for that sense of hype, even if it turns out to be overhype.
In other words, I did it because I felt like it and I opt to stick to it because I still like it :P


Tap a écrit :A wonderfully presented case, full of surprises and its fair share of "trickery", one might say, ha ha.

Spoiler : :
I enjoyed every moment of it, especially the fact that throwaway lines from 4-1 end up being highly relevant. The only issue I had, was with the Kurain Village flyer. It was a fantastic "cross-examination", don't get me wrong. I absolutely love the idea that Wright had Shadi/Zak channelled in order to effectively re-stage a past event for their benefit, but something is missing. There is no real effective segue into introducing Kurain. The players know Wright's story, and Apollo presumably does as well, but that's where the issue is - we don't know for certain what Apollo knows. I can't really think of any elegant solutions, bar some kind of interlude episode or exposition at the beginning, but just my two thoughts. It doesn't detract entirely, but I'm just being nitpick here.

Part of the mystery/surprise for the player is what Apollo's plan is and how well he is prepared.

I've warned that the case is set in canon and spoils SoJ, so the player should walk in with a knowledge of the canon up to the SoJ. This includes Phoenix's connection to Kurain Village and also Apollo's to Kingdom of Khura'in. The flyer establishes that Kurain is now a more public place, so this establishes that Apollo can know that spirit mediums can be available in US and be close to LA. It was likely for Apollo to be able find out about Agency's connection to the Fey Clan by himself, but he didn't have to find anything there. With the introduction of conspiring with him Klavier, it was established that Apollo had a man with an access to all the legal system's data about Phoenix's past cases.

At this point, the player already should realize that, since Apollo brought Kurain Village flyer to the court, it is somehow significant for his case (not to mention the Point K and "Mr. Nick" being very obvious hints). From SoJ the player should realize that Apollo has basic knowledge about spirit mediums from Khura'in. And the player should realize that Apollo has a man that he could just simply ask "Has Mr. Wright ever had any case related to spirit mediums?", to confirm that Phoenix is closely tied to Kurain Village and even cross-examined a channeled spirit.

The only remaining question for the player was "why would he ask this question". Well, if this actually was played as 5th case of AJ, right after Turnabout Succession, the player could remember Phoenix, during the MASON segment, using on the Zak information he could only obtain after Zak's death...

But not much can be shown about Kurain anyway, from Apollo's perspective. He never went there, because if he was spotted there, Phoenix (and Trucy) would be warned about his investigation. Which is why Klavier was sent there to get a confirmation in middle of the trial, so even if Pearl did warn Nick afterwards, it would be too late anyway.

Congratulations on the soon to be featured trial status; it is well deserving!


Thanks and I'm glad you liked it. Though

>old member posts
>actually don't recall him posting for quite a some time
>checks the date of second last post

Well, I feel quite honored. Thanks again for feedback.

ned63 a écrit :
Spoiler : play the game first :
The plot was great. I always love seeing the "trucy forged the bloody ace" theory in fan cases and this implementation of it is by far my favorite. I loved the characterization for Kristoph at the end, though I thought it was a a bit hard to follow may just be me being stupid though, it makes him far more interesting and even makes the Black Locks make sense whilst DD kind of just retconned what black locks mean. Same for why the Jurist System isn't even acknowledged in DD. I loved all of the references to past and future cases/games; they were all well done and didn't feel out of place to me. Phoenix's "the man who masterminded your game" line was amazing. I loved how we got Kristoph screaming "Justice" in this breakdown.
There were quite a few grammatical/spelling errors (to name a few, when Apollo was going on about honesty, it kept on being spelt as "honestly" I believe, also when they talk about how Zak sat on his chair when he was killed they say "sit" instead of the past tense a lot) but ultimately they weren't anything to the point where it really detracted from the experience, though they did break the immersion slightly.
I also think going into the case knowing that it fits into the current canon of the games really added a lot to the case whilst going through it.
I mostly really enjoyed all the characters- maybe Edgeworth was a little off, but for the most part everything was solid.

I could go on for ages, but at the end of it all, this is one of my favorite cases out of the many I've played. I genuinely wish it was canon- it's a great Rise from the Ashes for Apollo. Damn good stuff.

i would appreciate some more clarification about the post-trial scene and especially the post-credits scene though, this stuff is complicated

Glad you loved it and I'm going to work on the issues you pointed out here.
I especially thank for wishing for it being canon. Giving what I aimed to do here, it's the best complement I can get.

As for post-trial stuff about Kristoph... I don't know what exactly was causing troubles in understanding it. It was speculated that he tricked Phoenix into using forged evidence just to prank Nick and Zak, and then save them himself, that he never tried to kill anyone until after the end of Zak's trial, and even his original intend for the forged evidence was only to use it to scare Valant into cooperation.

As for the post-credit stuff... Well, it's how Phoenix first learned about Apollo working for Kristoph. When they both ended up getting drunk like two morons. Probably Nick, without consulting Trucy again, intended to make Kristoph drunk, to be able to get some info and record it... But this all ended with a huge headache, memory loss, and an accidentally broken camera >]


And as it turned out, by requesting QA inspection I've successfully tricked people into giving me more feedback :^)
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Gamer2002 » Mer Juin 13, 2018 11:09 pm

Legal double post.

Turnabout Trickery Open Beta 2 (OB2 for short) has been released.

I'm keeping the link to the OB (Old Beta for long) under the new link to OB2, in case somebody is playing it now and doesn't want to lose their save.

You can right click your OB saves, copy them and send them to me to receive links with OB2 saves.

Spoiler : changes log, spoilers of cuz :
* Added track Kurayami No Koku from Umineko. It plays during Edgeworth's flashback and in the post-courtroom scene, when everybody questions if the speculations about Kristoph Gavin could be true.
* Added track of Trucy's reminiscence from SoJ. It plays during the second part of the detention center flashback, and when you are presenting the evidence of Trucy forging the ace.
* Edgeworth's lines have been updated.
* DD Act is mentioned and Apollo's knowledge about it is suggested when Themis threatens Phoenix and Edgeworth after Phoenix's testimony
* DD Act is more explained when it becomes relevant
* Apollo's theory about Gavin and Wright moving the body is more explained after its every update
* You can give wrong non-penalizing answer to the question about the reason for Gavin and Wright hiding Zak's identity, by presenting the Missing Locket
* The question about Wright risking death by letting to be arrested in Kristoph's place was rewritten into a question
* During Trucy's trial it is clearly stated that Klavier's rock music forces everyone to shout, Themis and Edgeworth give their reason to roll with it
* During Trucy's trial Apollo states that his blunder of calling the card evidence wasn't Trucy's fault. Themis also explains that the card was immediately disqualified as evidence because of what Phoenix had said about it.
* The story behind Zak's false confession is explained in greater detail
* Wright recording channeled Zak is better explained, it is also added that Apollo learned about Phoenix's connection to spirit mediums thanks to Klavier checking the court archives
* There is a pause when you reveal Trucy as the forger
* Spotted errors were fixed, few lines were changed

I'm still looking for a proofreader.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Southern Corn » Jeu Juin 14, 2018 12:42 pm

I'm not particularly experienced, but I can be your proofreader if you like.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Gamer2002 » Jeu Juin 14, 2018 6:16 pm

Thanks. You most likely gonna be better than me.

Sending PM.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Southern Corn » Jeu Juin 14, 2018 6:21 pm

Ooh, neato! I'll get to this during the weekend. It'll be fun going through this, though.
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Re: [T][SoJ] Turnabout Trickery ☆ 

Message par Gamer2002 » Ven Juin 15, 2018 10:22 pm

Southern Corn did a phenomenally fast job at proofreading, so the case has been updated!

I'll give you all a month of time to give me more feedback, before contacting BP for another inspection.
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