[T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ★

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Enthalpy
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by Enthalpy »

If you're not in the throes of competition deadlines, I'd like you to look into a bug for me:
Spoiler : :
Starting around Frame ID 3213, when Apollo is pointing out Jane's inconsistent happiness, the judge seemingly randomly appears on a lot of sprites. Could you check if this is a bug in your script, and if so, fix it? If it's not, I'll do some investigating myself, but I suspect it's your script.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by drvonkitty »

Spoiler : :
I just poked around, and I don't see anything immediately apparent that would cause that. I played through that section a few times (normal, fast clicking, instant text typing, etc), and I wasn't able to recreate the bug. I don't see anything in the editor that would cause it, either--the judge only appears a handful of times in that section, and each time, the "hide previously shown characters" box is checked. I'm not sure what else could be causing it, unless something earlier in the trial is making it happen.
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by Enthalpy »

Can I ask how frequently you're editing the game and what kinds of edits these are? I just tried to reload a save from a few days ago, and I got a warning that you had edited recently, which may result in inconsistencies depending on how severe the edits are.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by drvonkitty »

Mainly just typographical edits, a few added frames of dialogue, stuff like that. I don't believe I've made any structural changes. You shouldn't run into any major errors, but let me know if there's any issues & I'll fix ASAP.
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by Enthalpy »

Okay, finished going through the redone case! I have a couple developer-side fires to put out, so it'll be a few days yet before I'll have the review typed up.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by drvonkitty »

Sounds good. Looking forward to it!
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by Enthalpy »

QA Review: A Turnabout Called Justice

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...Yeah, I take full responsibility for this QA taking as long as it has.
This QA is a blast from the past for me. Bright Age of the Law dates back to 2014, and the way I remember it, I was offering advice to drvonkitty on the art of case making long before that. It's 2021, and the case is finally done. One of the co-authors, mercurialSK, departed from the project before some of the graphics could be finished, but it's too late for that now.

So, will this bit of history culminate in a QA, or does the age need a little more brightening? Well, you can guess, but at least pretend it's a surprise, okay?
_____________________________________________________
The format on Check #1 is similar to in my previous reviews, though I've tweaked the categories some.
Enthalpy wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:33 amThey check that it has an overall story and gameplay of astounding quality; it should be really engaging, have interesting contradictions and be really fun.
– The Sparkling Feature Star is given for an aspect that makes your trial stand out even among the featured trials. Getting a Sparkling Feature Star means your trial is pretty much guaranteed to be featured after implementing the changes from check 2, unless it gets a Hollow Star.
+ – The Great Plus means that this aspect makes your good trial great. You don't need a Great Plus in every category, but you should have at least one Great Plus or Sparkling Feature Star for the trial to be featured.
✓✓ – The Double Check Mark means that this aspect is good enough for a featured trial. Almost everything in this area works solidly, but it lacks a "wow" factor. An otherwise great aspect that requires some non-trivial tweaking falls in here.
– The Single Check Mark means that this aspect can be good enough for a featured trial, but requires not major, but non-trivial modifications to make it truly solid. You must not have any Single Check Marks in order to pass Check 2.
– The Hollow Star marks a problem that can't be fixed without a major rewrite. A trial must not have any Hollow Stars in order to pass Check 1. If you get one, don't be discouraged! Remember that a Hollow Star is only a star that hasn't been filled yet. It's something you can work on when improving this trial or writing your next one, and once you've worked on it, go for another QA review!

Unlike the other marks, the Hollow Star and Single Check Mark only talk about how large of a rewrite is needed to be featured-trial good, not how good that part of the trial is.
Spoiler : Check #1: Here Be Spoilers! :
Contradictions and Cross-Examinations: ✓✓

I was warned at the outset of this QA that the logic was going to be a bit wonky. I can definitely confirm that! After this last revision cycle, we've cleaned this up a great deal, so I'll keep the section brief. I still have a few suggestions to polish things, but I'll leave those to check 2.

The cross-examinations were never the star of the trial, but they're definitely serviceable. The logical structure of this trial takes heavily after Yamazaki cases, where the action of court is led by the defense frantically trying to put together a theory, leaving the prosecutor to point out "but evidence!" instead of trying to establish their own case theory. There are a good number of topic changes as well. Still, the sign-posting changes work wonders for the clarity of the case.

Dialogue and Characterization: ✓✓
While there are a few jokes at the expense of writing decisions in Dual Destinies, this case goes the Yamazaki team route of sacrificing on believability of character writing in the name of melodrama. For some people, this is a worthwhile trade. I'm not one of them, but if you are, you'll see a lot to love about this case. I'll give this well-deserved discussion in other sections.

There's an art to writing revealing dialogue while still making the characters sound like people, and the writing here doesn't hit it. Characters love to monologue a bit too much. The conclusion of Trucy's Mood Matrix is designed to give Athena a chance to give an encouraging speech to Trucy. Franziska monologues on her philosophy of "perfect justice" as soon as we meet her, and Julius is surprisingly forthcoming with the backstory about his mother. Of course, this adds to the central justice theme, and it's... difficult to imagine how this could come out any other way, given the rapid pace the game needs to set. At the end of court and when talking with Phoenix at the end, Apollo goes on talks about his philosophy of justice. Again, it works in the theme of the case, but there's a price to be paid.

That said, there are some truly impressive macro-level character writing decisions here:
* Bringing Franziska on as the prosecutor to have her harangue Lamiroir about her treatment of her daughters. Given Franziska's history with Manfred, she's likely to be more emotionally volatile than usually. drvonkitty uses this to full effect. Franziska's anger blinds her judgment, which both gets the case where it needs to go, and gives an extra theme tie-in at the end of the case, building up to a stellar final evidence present.
* The closing scene where Phoenix apologies to Apollo and admits his own inadequacies as a mentor.
* The tension between Apollo and Athena when they disagree about whether to indict Jane.
* Castor's "breaking" speech to Apollo and Lamiroir, once it's become clear that Apollo is indicting him was genuinely chilling. I really like the parts you added on to my suggestion!

Narrative:

This is where the case really shines. It's incredibly ambitious, and I can only think of one Ace Attorney Online case that compares. (Mysterious Sirens and Turnabouts, which I suspect is no longer functional due to broken links, and is also a story about Apollo and Thalassa.) A Turnabout Called Justice was intended to tie up the entire Gramarye story: Apollo coming into his own as a lawyer, Apollo learning about his relationship with Trucy and Thalassa, and filling in details about Magnifi's skullduggery which we learned about in 4-4. Much like 3-5, Bridge to the Turnabout. And just as 3-5 was intended to be an extraordinarily tense case, this one is as well. Trucy is the defendant and Phoenix is the victim.

If you like high stakes, twist-dense single-day trials, you're going to love this. The stakes are always clear, and the feeling of tension is always clear throughout. I don't have much to say about this other than that the tension just works.

Presentation:

I've newly added this category because this case reminded me how much it can add. This was always one of the stunning features of this case. Mercurial's artistry adds a lot to the case: those custom sprites for Jane and Castor! I don't know how the rest of the work was divided between the two of you, but I know that you were able to at least did some of the evidence edits. They're all impressively high quality, and the attention to presentation detail plays no small part on selling the player on the grandiosity of this case. The addition of custom mechanics, especially with that custom art for them, also goes a long way to achieving this effect.

I should note that some sprites that were intended obviously aren't here. Castor's breakdown is case in point. It's stunning regardless.
Spoiler : Check #2: Here Be Spoilers! :
I cannot find my notes for the investigation, but I remember these being minimal, so I'm not inclined to go through the investigation once again. These largely stand from what I posted previously. The trial had more substantial edits, so I'll focus there. Because this... took a while, some of these frame numbers may be outdated from past edits. If that's the case, then feel free to ignore.

The skirt whipping scene was hilarious. You're missing spaces between words, though.
....Okay, yes, Julius's intro is REALLY bad for the defense.
F229 (Julius's evidence present): "unflappable" means "calm in a crisis" and cannot describe a photograph. Do you mean "incontrovertible"?
That opening was WAY better.
F7853: You're missing a closing bracket. I also think you meant to stop the music.
I think you're also missing a "kill music" command going into second cross-examination after the testimony.
F624 (Press Conversation about camera): Boss' -> Boss's
F2561 (Press Conversation about camera): day, and
F1571 (Press conversation about camera): Do you mean "amico" or "amigo"? It looks to me like Athena is slipping into Spanish
The scene where Athena tries to cheer up Trucy doesn't work for me, but it's not worth discussing. It's superficial for my taste.
...Penalty flash still needs to be fixed, but that's an issue on me.
F1108 (Trucy perceive): from us.
And, sibling reveal. It doesn't do MUCH for me, but for people who like the melodrama. Lamiroir was a non-presence in this game, really.
F1326 (Court lobby): here, and
The judge should probably ask about Thalassa's sight.
At present, still need a bit of tightening on changing testimony. Need Castor say had him change as soon as he entered the theater or something. If he got into the stage by then, Apollo has no point.
The logic minigame still seems silly, but oh well.
The last logic connection doesn't make sense to me. The assistant's shuffling... doesn't prove anything about the lines being moved. Can you elaborate on this one?
Wait, what. How does the assistant's shuffling cause lines to move a WHOLE FOOT?
Wait, why is Franziska going on about evidence? This... seems like something she REALLY should address.
Yeah, Apollo is making a logical leap WAY ahead of the player, with "contradiction in the premise of the testimony". It'd also be good to elaborate on dress rehearsal, so it's clear this should have been like the show.
F2323 (Timeline): Remove the comma before "and"
The way to present the timeline contradiction is overcomplicated.
This has nothing to do with the original question of "can the defense prove their assertions surrounding the witness."
Ah, Apollo tries to go that direction, but gets cut off by Thalassa immediately.
F2631 (Jane's first press conversation): witness' -> witness's
I shouldn't see "Insert perceive here" on... every wrong statement of Jane's first CE.
Sodium lamps.
I don't see how this helps the defense's case of accident. Trucy still fixed those lines after any alleged smudging.
SPECULATION
And, jump to end of testimony.
F3213 (What caused happiness): Judge sprite appears here.
Yeah, major graphics glitch. I don't know how this one even happened. This goes on for quite a few frames.

F3022: as -> was
F3089: lines, as
It'd be good to have Apollo repeat Jane's statement, in case the player forgot.
At the point at which Apollo is making this "we need to figure out why Trucy made Jane happy argument," the relevance to the case is strained. That kills tension.
Ah, yes, there we go.
I, um, don't get why the court is so shocked about this reveal that Trucy was helping Jane look for the choker. What does it change?
...Wait, what. When has it EVER been clear when that photo was taken? I've been blurry on the timeline of "photo taken", "redrawing chalk lines"... So, it had to have been taken during or after rehearsal. Yeah, I don't see an issue with this being either during rehearsal or just after. What's the issue?
Immediately after rehearsal... Oh... Wait, DOES that change anything? This establishes opportunity for the lines to have been redrawn, but this point was never in question. The burden was on the defense to prove someone else redrew them. FvK says this in opening, yes?
F4713: ...The significance is this still strained for me.
I think you need to establish that the saw trick was the FINAL one for this contradiction to hold. This is much cleaner, though.
Franziska is a broken record, and I love it.
F3913: Change 1 to !
F3706: Need ?
F3753: Again, question mark needed.
F4104: theater, and
F4113: witness's
How ON EARTH would Castor have recognized Thalassa?
F4864: remove "both"
The audience comments are far more on-point now.

The cross-examination with Franziska could use a bit more clarity on what it is we're supposed to do.
It LOOKS LIKE we're supposed to do more on "could've made it hot to get her to take her choker off"
Chalk Lines SHOULD be accepted as other reason to get Jane to remove her choker.
We can't point out that the existence of the photo is way too convenient?
Could, um, the defense elaborate on how exactly Castor would have given Trucy this idea to switch the trick order?
F5925: inhibited, and
I think it'd be good to mention the locket among Phoenix's stuff. It's easy to forget.
F7354: Boss's
F7270: slightly, so
Spoiler : VERDICT :
★ The case is good enough to be featured. Please make the requested changes.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by drvonkitty »

Spoiler : :
Wow. I’ve spent over 9 years on this forum writing fancases, and, embarrassing as it is to say, I’ve always dreamed of one day having a featured trial. So needless to say, it made me a little emotional to read that review. There’s a lot of people who did it a lot quicker than me (looking at you, Tiag and Gizmo!), but man, I finally did it. :larry:

First things first, thank you so much Enthalpy for all your hard work on this QA, and no need to feel bad for taking your time (you already give so much time and energy to this community on top of your real life obligations). This case is a monster (~10k frames, and those are DENSE!) You are correct that you were one of the very first people to play and review my first case—Turnabout Coffee, part of the now-dead Chris Tenson series. (For kicks, I might release it on here just to show how much my writing has grown. We all start small!) Your feedback then was invaluable to helping me get started, and you’ve helped so much through this QA to help me and get that level of polish needed for a feature. There’s a reason you and Ferdie receive one of the very first credits in the case—I really couldn’t have done it without y’all.

Like you said, this was an impossibly ambitious case. SK and I dreamed it up late one night on Skype when there was something like a month left in the BAOTL competition. Hard to believe we thought we could complete something on this scale so quickly! I guess we were just young and stupid and completely unaware that I would spend years of my life working on the damn thing. Funnily enough, looking back at the old threads, there was a lot of vitriol about the competition and a few offhanded jabs at our case. So, uh, take that, random forum users! It wasn’t that terrible after all!

(Speaking of, technically, this case was supposed to be THE first featured trial of the v6 era, with plenty of subsequent controversy about the promise of receiving featured status without a QA. I figured I wouldn’t bring that up until now because I felt like it was more fair to go through the process the same as anyone else. Plus, I missed the “first” mark by, well, a few years, lol.)

I really do wish the case could’ve been more complete in terms of the assets, and frankly the case could’ve been released two years earlier if I didn’t keep holding out hope that they’d get done. The perceive was a big selling point, and it’s unfortunate that it doesn’t work in part 2, given that perceive was written into the narrative pretty heavily. The missing art assets are sad as well—Franziska, Castor, etc. Unfortunately, SK had to move on with his life, and it just isn’t reasonable for me to invest in commissioning the remaining assets. Just to complete Castor’s breakdown as we envisioned it would be $150 for the commission I contacted. (A cost which I’m considering paying, but that’s just for one brief scene in the case!). To be fair, the lack of assets meant I had to do some stretching to make it work. I remember one of the first things I read on the forum being about using a small number of poses to convey a large number of emotions. Castor, whose only three sprites are pointing, thinking, and shocked, really forced me to do just that. It’s tough when you have a villain and not even an angry pose! But somehow, it almost enhances the effect—it’s almost kind of scary how emotionless he can seem at times while letting off a flurry of emotions. I also gained a lot of visual design skills from this case, because like you said, I had to fill in some of the gaps. There’s a... noticeable difference in quality between my art and SK’s, but I did my best to ensure the case lived up to the hype for its presentation.

Re: dialogue, you’re absolutely right, and both Ferdie and Ropfa made similar comments. It gets way too preach-y at times, becoming almost a pantomime of the original series (something which the Yamazaki games are notoriously guilty of, as you point out). I do think it’s worth pointing out that, at the time, one of the biggest criticisms of DD was the lack of clear character motivations, especially for its culprits. I made an express effort to avoid that for this case. Every character has explicit motivations throughout the case, even if I’m way too quick to have them spell it out like pulpit preaching robots. I’d be curious (when you get a well-deserved detox from my writing!) for your thoughts on the dialogue and characters in Ace of Turnabouts, which I think is a much more mature version of my writing. Remember that large chunks of this case were written over 7 years ago, and it shows!

I’m really glad you were happy with the narrative decisions as well as some of the overall character ones. I remember it getting called the next gen MSAT back in the day! That’s the area I excel in, and I think I have a pretty good grasp of recreating that AA feeling. There’s an art to it for sure. Interestingly, SK was actually more responsible for the mystery structure than I was, so that definitely hindered me as I ended up having to go back and make significant edits for clarity years later. That’s part of why the final product you played initially was so messy. Unfortunately, I just don’t have a knack for mystery and cross-examination design, and I think the Yamazaki style ends up being the default simply because Takumi’s style requires such careful planning. I hate to say that, because I’m someone who does not like DD and SoJ, yet my cases are much more like those than something like AJ, my favorite game in the series.

(Someday, if you ever finish your current cases and find yourself with some free time, I’d love to collaborate, as I think our skills would mesh remarkably well. I’d love to try out a more Takumi style case, as Ace of Turnabouts is also very much Yamazaki-esque. Perhaps a competition entry someday? Who knows.)

Anyway, I’ve rambled on enough here. I’ll get on those Check 2 edits tomorrow, and I’ll get back to you ASAP once they’re done. Thanks so much again for everything. The Bright Age of the Law can finally, finally, finally come to a close! :pearlhappy:

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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by drvonkitty »

Everything's done, just a few clarifying remarks left:
Enthalpy wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:56 pm
Spoiler : Check #2: Here Be Spoilers! :
The last logic connection doesn't make sense to me. The assistant's shuffling... doesn't prove anything about the lines being moved. Can you elaborate on this one?
Wait, what. How does the assistant's shuffling cause lines to move a WHOLE FOOT?
Just to make it more clear, the defense's (incorrect) argument is that the shuffling allowed her to smudge the lines, setting up the opportunity for her to redraw the lines later. I've clarified this in the case.
Yeah, major graphics glitch. I don't know how this one even happened. This goes on for quite a few frames.
Don't think this is one I can fix, unfortunately.
How ON EARTH would Castor have recognized Thalassa?
Not sure what this is referring to.
It LOOKS LIKE we're supposed to do more on "could've made it hot to get her to take her choker off"
Is this something I can fix?
We can't point out that the existence of the photo is way too convenient?
I honestly can't remember, but I do think Apollo makes this argument at some point? I get that it would make sense to add it to the rebuttal, but there's no clear place for it, and honestly, that whole section is a complete mess--anything I try to add now could break things substantially. So not sure this is a change worth making.
I think it'd be good to mention the locket among Phoenix's stuff. It's easy to forget.
Mention it where?
And, that's everything!
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by Enthalpy »

If you couldn't guess, my AAO time over the last couple of days has been devoted to finishing a different QA review, so back to this one.
Spoiler : :
I'm glad to hear all of that!

For the prospect of a collaboration, my oldest unfinished case involved into something quite different from my original vision, and I'm putting that on hold. I do have a competition entry to finish, but after that, I'd be delighted to talk collaborations.

Bullet points:

* My disbelief at Castor recognizing Lamiroir is about the statement where Castor says, "Sparky took the keys to let in Thalassa... I recognized her from Troupe Gramarye." Thalassa still appears as Lamiroir, and at this point in the trial, we don't know they were married. Perhaps Apollo should raise this point as a way to suggest how closely he must have known her?
* When pressing the second statement in CE2, one of the possible lines of Apollo's monologue is, "(I'm gonna need more if I'm gonna go anywhere with this theory...)" As-written, it sounds specifically like we need more to prove that Castor turned the heat up to take her choker off. Clarifying would solve the issue, I think.
* Mention the locket in the description of "Phoenix's Stuff".
* Nothing further to add to anything not explicitly mentioned.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ☆ (Finally released)

Post by drvonkitty »

Enthalpy wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:27 pm If you couldn't guess, my AAO time over the last couple of days has been devoted to finishing a different QA review, so back to this one.
Spoiler : :
I'm glad to hear all of that!

For the prospect of a collaboration, my oldest unfinished case involved into something quite different from my original vision, and I'm putting that on hold. I do have a competition entry to finish, but after that, I'd be delighted to talk collaborations.

Bullet points:

* My disbelief at Castor recognizing Lamiroir is about the statement where Castor says, "Sparky took the keys to let in Thalassa... I recognized her from Troupe Gramarye." Thalassa still appears as Lamiroir, and at this point in the trial, we don't know they were married. Perhaps Apollo should raise this point as a way to suggest how closely he must have known her?
* When pressing the second statement in CE2, one of the possible lines of Apollo's monologue is, "(I'm gonna need more if I'm gonna go anywhere with this theory...)" As-written, it sounds specifically like we need more to prove that Castor turned the heat up to take her choker off. Clarifying would solve the issue, I think.
* Mention the locket in the description of "Phoenix's Stuff".
* Nothing further to add to anything not explicitly mentioned.
Done!
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ★ (Finally released)

Post by Enthalpy »

It is done! Congratulations!
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ★

Post by drvonkitty »

Thank you!

Now... anyone out there played the case? :side: I'm desperate for feedback, even if it's just to say you played it!
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ★

Post by ikuzonos »

drvonkitty wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:54 pm Thank you!

Now... anyone out there played the case? :side: I'm desperate for feedback, even if it's just to say you played it!
I started the case and I found it to be very intriguing! The writing is great and I'm invested in the mystery just from the beginning. My only issue is that... I'm stuck.
Spoiler : :
I've tried so hard, but I can't seem to get past Trucy's perceive section in the Dressing Room; obviously I've referred to the walkthrough, but I still can't progress. It could just be that I'm pointing to the wrong part of her arm, but I don't know what other part I could point to? If you could help me with this, I'd greatly appreciate it, because I'd love to actually get into the meat of the case.
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Re: [T][CE] A Turnabout Called Justice ★

Post by MedicInDisquise »

drvonkitty wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:54 pm Now... anyone out there played the case? :side: I'm desperate for feedback, even if it's just to say you played it!
I forgot to put my thoughts when I first played this through, whoops.. but to tl;dr, I really enjoyed this case! Mostly the characterization and story, the actual mystery didn't appeal to me too much besides the high stakes, but I really enjoyed the banter and growth of the main cast. It feels like each character was picked for a reason, and they worked really well together. Franziska in particular felt like a really well-fitting choice, considering her connection to Phoenix.

I also really loved the presentation. Custom backgrounds and evidence is always neat, and the ending cutscene made me feel happy. I lowkey wish they did this with Apollo's character instead of giving him another two backstories in the 3DS games. :apollo:
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