[T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. ●

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Awsome2464
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by Awsome2464 »

Super legenda wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:39 am
Awsome2464 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:34 am That was definitely a great experience! I can see why it won the comp.
Spoiler : Further thoughts: :
As someone who's experienced a long period of time of self-doubt and hatred (though thankfully not from a traumatic event such as this), Athena's feelings were pretty spot-on. Also, the idea of interpreting a self-help therapy session as a trial was actually pretty clever and made for some fun interactions between the Athenas. Plus, the custom visuals and audio were well-made and did a good job adding to the experience!
Overall, excellent work and well worth the wait!
Haha, thanks! I'm really glad that you enjoyed it so much!
Spoiler : :
Oh, are you fine now?
Spoiler : :
Yeah, I've been fine for a few years now; thanks for asking.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by Super legenda »

Awsome2464 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 3:22 am
Super legenda wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:39 am
Awsome2464 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:34 am That was definitely a great experience! I can see why it won the comp.
Spoiler : Further thoughts: :
As someone who's experienced a long period of time of self-doubt and hatred (though thankfully not from a traumatic event such as this), Athena's feelings were pretty spot-on. Also, the idea of interpreting a self-help therapy session as a trial was actually pretty clever and made for some fun interactions between the Athenas. Plus, the custom visuals and audio were well-made and did a good job adding to the experience!
Overall, excellent work and well worth the wait!
Haha, thanks! I'm really glad that you enjoyed it so much!
Spoiler : :
Oh, are you fine now?
Spoiler : :
Yeah, I've been fine for a few years now; thanks for asking.
Spoiler : :
Oh! I'm glad. You're welcome.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by SuperAj3 »

Playing now!
one little error I noticed was in Trucy's description. It says "My boss's daughter, she obviously... doesn't feels good." (should just be "doesn't feel good".)

I loved the intro to the case! So dramatic! Can't wait to play the rest!
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by Diyarhan »

Wow! What a case it was!
Spoiler : :
I am not native in English but I will try reviewing this case. First of all, when I saw Apollo and Phoenix dying, I was like "OH NO OUR BELOVED MAIN CHARACTERS ARE DYING HOW THE HELL CAN THIS HAPPEN!?" A good start for a case. Athena's character was good, the psychology of her. The slow music was pretty unsettling and that is what makes it good. I just clicked the mirror about 20 times when Athena went to bathroom, waiting for something to appear in the mirror... Sadly, it didn't. In the day where Trucy dies in Athena's dream, I heard the Danganronpa music and I was thinking... "Oh no, something will happen and I can't do anything""I love how murderer appears on window in a frame and then dissapears. It was really good. But my favorite part was trial. Athena vs Prosecutor Athena w/ Judge Athena. Then the Witness Athena aka Murderer or True Fear. What a paradox is that lmao. (Oh, by the way... The Biggest, most awful, most tragic, most sad, most scary, most dramatic, most ugly, most painful, most deadly event in the world!) Then Athena faced her fears. Oh man it was good. One of the best cases I played in here. It was different from every case I played. I will look forward for your other cases man!
Lastly, don't waste your time thinking "Should I play it?" Just go and play, you will love it! :phoenix:
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by Super legenda »

SuperAj3 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:10 pm Playing now!
one little error I noticed was in Trucy's description. It says "My boss's daughter, she obviously... doesn't feels good." (should just be "doesn't feel good".)

I loved the intro to the case! So dramatic! Can't wait to play the rest!
Whoops, thanks, I just fixed it. I'm glad that you're excited!
Diyarhan wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:21 pm Wow! What a case it was!
Spoiler : :
I am not native in English but I will try reviewing this case. First of all, when I saw Apollo and Phoenix dying, I was like "OH NO OUR BELOVED MAIN CHARACTERS ARE DYING HOW THE HELL CAN THIS HAPPEN!?" A good start for a case. Athena's character was good, the psychology of her. The slow music was pretty unsettling and that is what makes it good. I just clicked the mirror about 20 times when Athena went to bathroom, waiting for something to appear in the mirror... Sadly, it didn't. In the day where Trucy dies in Athena's dream, I heard the Danganronpa music and I was thinking... "Oh no, something will happen and I can't do anything""I love how murderer appears on window in a frame and then dissapears. It was really good. But my favorite part was trial. Athena vs Prosecutor Athena w/ Judge Athena. Then the Witness Athena aka Murderer or True Fear. What a paradox is that lmao. (Oh, by the way... The Biggest, most awful, most tragic, most sad, most scary, most dramatic, most ugly, most painful, most deadly event in the world!) Then Athena faced her fears. Oh man it was good. One of the best cases I played in here. It was different from every case I played. I will look forward for your other cases man!
Lastly, don't waste your time thinking "Should I play it?" Just go and play, you will love it! :phoenix:
Oh, wow, I'm very happy that you liked it so much! Thank you so much for the review!
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by risefromtheashes »

Awsome2464 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 3:22 am
Super legenda wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:39 am
Awsome2464 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:34 am That was definitely a great experience! I can see why it won the comp.
Spoiler : Further thoughts: :
As someone who's experienced a long period of time of self-doubt and hatred (though thankfully not from a traumatic event such as this), Athena's feelings were pretty spot-on. Also, the idea of interpreting a self-help therapy session as a trial was actually pretty clever and made for some fun interactions between the Athenas. Plus, the custom visuals and audio were well-made and did a good job adding to the experience!
Overall, excellent work and well worth the wait!
Haha, thanks! I'm really glad that you enjoyed it so much!
Spoiler : :
Oh, are you fine now?
Spoiler : :
Yeah, I've been fine for a few years now; thanks for asking.
Spoiler : :
*AGGRESSIVELY YELLS AFFIRMING STATEMENTS AT YOU EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CONVERSATION*
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OUR CASES:
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by Enthalpy »

SL requested a QA, and I've assigned BP to it. Good luck!
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by Super legenda »

Enthalpy wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:40 am SL requested a QA, and I've assigned BP to it. Good luck!
Thanks! I'm quite nervous I must say, I hope BP enjoys it.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!)

Post by Bad Player »

☆ This case is pending a QA inspection to be featured.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!) ☆

Post by Bad Player »

Apologies for the incredibly... incredibly long wait.

Since I'd like to get this out of the way...
Spoiler : Result :
☆ The QA inspection is complete. This case is not good enough to be featured. Sorry!
Spoiler : Review :
I do want to start off by saying that I did like the trial and thought that it was an interesting and unique premise with a lot of attention of detail to the presentation. Unfortunately, it just didn't quite get there, which I'll discuss below.

In general, you should get someone to proofread the entire case to conform to "natural" English. Here's a selection of edits, though:
216: Change to “Court is now in session for the trial of ___”
220: Make this timed
224: Delete “to”
228: Change the quotes to asterisks
264, 341, 362: Noodles shouldn’t be capitalized
268: are > is
273: Missing a period.
306, 309: Don’t capitalize kitchen
314: I think this should be timed too
319: lunges > lungs
336: leave > left; go > went
339: “Sighs.” > *Sigh*.
343: on > in
348: Uf > Oof
365: take > get
378: Delete “an”
448: Change to: The innocent ones are always the first victims.
“The Final Day: What’s Inside One” isn’t properly centered (and bleeds onto the next line)
Cross 1: Pressing the second statement after presenting the Noodles and presenting the Noodles a second time should get a different conversation.
1085: Mouth flaps shouldn’t move in this frame.
Cross 3: In the penalty conversation, the lifebar keeps flashing even after you get a penalty

So like I said, I liked the premise and thought it was interesting. It was also clear you put a lot of effort into the horror portion and visual presentation, which was very well-done. (It wasn't that scary... Jumpscares seem to lose a lot of power when they're confined to a 256x192 portion of a computer monitor screen. But I digress.)

The issue is the content. There's a massive disconnect between the gravity of two halves of the case, and this causes it to lose a lot of impact.

Phoenix and Apollo are killed, and this sends Athena into depression and psychosis. However, the murders and logistical aftermath are rushed through. There's barely anything about what happened, we don't see how anyone besides Athena and Trucy react or are affected, and Trucy and Athena are immediately whisked off to live in a house as two unaccompanied teenage girls. To be honest, I kind of get it. This case isn't about Phoenix and Apollo's murders, or how it affects Edgeworth or Larry or anyone like that. It's about the effect it has on Athena. By rushing through everything else, we're able to shine the spotlight directly on Athena and her decline. But on the other hand immersing ourselves in the wider aftermath of Phoenix and Apollo's deaths could lend more gravity to the situation--make it feel more "real"--and perhaps even provide some more material for the second half of the case. I'm not telling you that you need to do this, but I would consider it.

But to go back to discussing what you did, rather than what you didn't do... I suppose one way you could put it is that too much of the plot revolves around noodles. The noodle fight is probably the second-biggest event in the first half of the game (with the confrontation with the murderer being the first), and is what the beginning of the trial is about. Why are we spending so much time on a fight about noodles in a game about Phoenix and Apollo's deaths?? There's a disconnect here that serves as a barrier to immersion. It's not that this is unreasonable or bad writing or anything; it's clearly just misplaced anger over the situation. But the game is torn between its two halves--acknowledging that it was misplaced anger is essential to Athena and Trucy's reconciliation, but the game can't acknowledge that it was merely misplaced anger, because if it does, Trucy's testimony regarding the noodle fight becomes a nonstarter. But the player knows that the noodle fight was just misplaced anger and not a big deal, so Trucy's testimony feels like a silly waste of time because c'mon, it was just a stupid fight over noodles that meant nothing.

The other point in Trucy's testimony has a similar issue. It should go without saying that hallucinating a person's death is not equivalent in any respect to imaging someone's death out of hatred. It's an obviously flawed argument over nothing. So the fact that we need to "disprove" it feels like a waste of time, because it's clearly wrong on its face--it's not something we should even be required to disprove.

And that's the entirety of the first testimony and first witness!

The second witness and testimony is simple and straightforward--especially since it comes immediately after a friendship speech with Trucy. It doesn't feel like there's any pushback or resistance, since we were practically handed the answer.

So the first witness makes arguments that are clearly flawed on their face, the second witness basically doesn't put up a fight, they have one testimony each, and we're already facing down the final boss. It just... doesn't match the gravity and tragedy of the case's core premise of Phoenix and Apollo's deaths.

The fact that we're in "Mental Court," which is a totally made-up concept with totally made-up rules, and totally made-up evidence that is just all dumped on us at once, doesn't help either. Mental Court could work, and it's not something I outright reject, but, since it's something totally new, the game needs to convince me that it works and it's worth it, and these first two testimonies/witnesses don't.

Anyway, I liked Fearthena and the way she acts (she reminds me a lot of you-know-who from Danganronpa, in a good way). My biggest issue with the showdown with her is that it felt you held back a bit. Specifically, Fearthena's central argument of "If you gave in to emotional turmoil and put yourself at rock bottom, things wouldn't ever be able to get worse" doesn't have an immediately obvious issue or rebuttal (unlike the other arguments presented so far), which is what makes it terrifying--but it's buried in the cross-examination! It should be placed front and center as the main argument Athena needs to confront, not a footnote on the more nebulous and dorky "Fear will always be there!!"

So, I was a bit on the fence on how to handle this. Because I like the idea, the technical execution is very good, and there's a lot of potential... but at the same time, it's still a good way off from being at the quality level I think featuring requires. Ultimately, it was the scope of the changes that made me decide that this should be a "rejection." There isn't a list of specific, discrete issues that need to be resolved; my issues and suggestions revolve around conceptual issues that will require the addition and/or reworking of plot elements. And that's something that I think needs another check when it's done, and not just a pass to do and get the star.

I think this definitely could be featured. Just... not in its current form.

I hope I was clear enough. If there's anything you're confused about, or want more elaboration or my thoughts on anything, please let me know.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!) ☆

Post by Super legenda »

Bad Player wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:18 am Apologies for the incredibly... incredibly long wait.

Since I'd like to get this out of the way...
Spoiler : Result :
☆ The QA inspection is complete. This case is not good enough to be featured. Sorry!
Spoiler : Review :
I do want to start off by saying that I did like the trial and thought that it was an interesting and unique premise with a lot of attention of detail to the presentation. Unfortunately, it just didn't quite get there, which I'll discuss below.

In general, you should get someone to proofread the entire case to conform to "natural" English. Here's a selection of edits, though:
216: Change to “Court is now in session for the trial of ___”
220: Make this timed
224: Delete “to”
228: Change the quotes to asterisks
264, 341, 362: Noodles shouldn’t be capitalized
268: are > is
273: Missing a period.
306, 309: Don’t capitalize kitchen
314: I think this should be timed too
319: lunges > lungs
336: leave > left; go > went
339: “Sighs.” > *Sigh*.
343: on > in
348: Uf > Oof
365: take > get
378: Delete “an”
448: Change to: The innocent ones are always the first victims.
“The Final Day: What’s Inside One” isn’t properly centered (and bleeds onto the next line)
Cross 1: Pressing the second statement after presenting the Noodles and presenting the Noodles a second time should get a different conversation.
1085: Mouth flaps shouldn’t move in this frame.
Cross 3: In the penalty conversation, the lifebar keeps flashing even after you get a penalty

So like I said, I liked the premise and thought it was interesting. It was also clear you put a lot of effort into the horror portion and visual presentation, which was very well-done. (It wasn't that scary... Jumpscares seem to lose a lot of power when they're confined to a 256x192 portion of a computer monitor screen. But I digress.)

The issue is the content. There's a massive disconnect between the gravity of two halves of the case, and this causes it to lose a lot of impact.

Phoenix and Apollo are killed, and this sends Athena into depression and psychosis. However, the murders and logistical aftermath are rushed through. There's barely anything about what happened, we don't see how anyone besides Athena and Trucy react or are affected, and Trucy and Athena are immediately whisked off to live in a house as two unaccompanied teenage girls. To be honest, I kind of get it. This case isn't about Phoenix and Apollo's murders, or how it affects Edgeworth or Larry or anyone like that. It's about the effect it has on Athena. By rushing through everything else, we're able to shine the spotlight directly on Athena and her decline. But on the other hand immersing ourselves in the wider aftermath of Phoenix and Apollo's deaths could lend more gravity to the situation--make it feel more "real"--and perhaps even provide some more material for the second half of the case. I'm not telling you that you need to do this, but I would consider it.

I agree there, I could add at least some references to other character's thoughts on the situation,thanks.

But to go back to discussing what you did, rather than what you didn't do... I suppose one way you could put it is that too much of the plot revolves around noodles. The noodle fight is probably the second-biggest event in the first half of the game (with the confrontation with the murderer being the first), and is what the beginning of the trial is about. Why are we spending so much time on a fight about noodles in a game about Phoenix and Apollo's deaths?? There's a disconnect here that serves as a barrier to immersion. It's not that this is unreasonable or bad writing or anything; it's clearly just misplaced anger over the situation. But the game is torn between its two halves--acknowledging that it was misplaced anger is essential to Athena and Trucy's reconciliation, but the game can't acknowledge that it was merely misplaced anger, because if it does, Trucy's testimony regarding the noodle fight becomes a nonstarter. But the player knows that the noodle fight was just misplaced anger and not a big deal, so Trucy's testimony feels like a silly waste of time because c'mon, it was just a stupid fight over noodles that meant nothing.

The other point in Trucy's testimony has a similar issue. It should go without saying that hallucinating a person's death is not equivalent in any respect to imaging someone's death out of hatred. It's an obviously flawed argument over nothing. So the fact that we need to "disprove" it feels like a waste of time, because it's clearly wrong on its face--it's not something we should even be required to disprove.

Yep, I realize that the arguments in the testimony are dumb, and even Athena says that this is dumb. I wanted to showcase the absurd and weird of the situation, and mainly, that is not the real Trucy. Rather, something Athena's Fear made, believing that every wrong thing she did is worthy of being hated, which trust me, when you are depressed... you can believe that. And she was also in a paranoia believing she'd break down and murder people, her fear wanted to make Thena believe the hallucination was more.

And that's the entirety of the first testimony and first witness!

The second witness and testimony is simple and straightforward--especially since it comes immediately after a friendship speech with Trucy. It doesn't feel like there's any pushback or resistance, since we were practically handed the answer.

So the first witness makes arguments that are clearly flawed on their face, the second witness basically doesn't put up a fight, they have one testimony each, and we're already facing down the final boss. It just... doesn't match the gravity and tragedy of the case's core premise of Phoenix and Apollo's deaths.

Ye, the second testimony is short, I thought it was fitting, Athena got help from "Trucy", and truly stands up to the Fear, and beats it, until its shown there's more.

The fact that we're in "Mental Court," which is a totally made-up concept with totally made-up rules, and totally made-up evidence that is just all dumped on us at once, doesn't help either. Mental Court could work, and it's not something I outright reject, but, since it's something totally new, the game needs to convince me that it works and it's worth it, and these first two testimonies/witnesses don't.

Anyway, I liked Fearthena and the way she acts (she reminds me a lot of you-know-who from Danganronpa, in a good way). My biggest issue with the showdown with her is that it felt you held back a bit. Specifically, Fearthena's central argument of "If you gave in to emotional turmoil and put yourself at rock bottom, things wouldn't ever be able to get worse" doesn't have an immediately obvious issue or rebuttal (unlike the other arguments presented so far), which is what makes it terrifying--but it's buried in the cross-examination! It should be placed front and center as the main argument Athena needs to confront, not a footnote on the more nebulous and dorky "Fear will always be there!!"

Fair point there, it is a big argument, so I think I'll try to reshape that cross examination a bit.

So, I was a bit on the fence on how to handle this. Because I like the idea, the technical execution is very good, and there's a lot of potential... but at the same time, it's still a good way off from being at the quality level I think featuring requires. Ultimately, it was the scope of the changes that made me decide that this should be a "rejection." There isn't a list of specific, discrete issues that need to be resolved; my issues and suggestions revolve around conceptual issues that will require the addition and/or reworking of plot elements. And that's something that I think needs another check when it's done, and not just a pass to do and get the star.

I think this definitely could be featured. Just... not in its current form.

I hope I was clear enough. If there's anything you're confused about, or want more elaboration or my thoughts on anything, please let me know.
Don't worry about the delay, it is completely understandable, I'll start fixing the technical and grammar mistakes right now, and I'll answer some of the points in blue.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!) ●

Post by Bad Player »

Spoiler : :
For your second point--If that's what you want to do, a better way to try to structure the case might be to only have the "dark" side in the first half of the case, and then in the Mental Trial Athena is able to figure out/realize that things weren't as bad as she thought, and she was just misinterpreting things or looking at them in a bad lens. That gets the emotional message across while also maintaining Ace Attorney-style "find the truth" gameplay/flow.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!) ●

Post by Super legenda »

Bad Player wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:42 am
Spoiler : :
For your second point--If that's what you want to do, a better way to try to structure the case might be to only have the "dark" side in the first half of the case, and then in the Mental Trial Athena is able to figure out/realize that things weren't as bad as she thought, and she was just misinterpreting things or looking at them in a bad lens. That gets the emotional message across while also maintaining Ace Attorney-style "find the truth" gameplay/flow.
Hm... I'll think about that, thanks.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!) ●

Post by DWaM »

Is the trial down for reworks?
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout of the Final Day. (Now Released!) ●

Post by Super legenda »

DWaM wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:45 pm Is the trial down for reworks?
Aye, sorry, I was working on it for some days after the review, though I don't think I will for a while due to lack of motivation, so it is back up since a few days with some of the changes and fixes.
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