[T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ☆○○○○

Find and discuss trials made by other members and showcase your own trials.

Moderators: EN - Forum Moderators, EN - Trial Reviewers

User avatar
Blackstein
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:54 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, Portuguese, Spanish

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ☆○○○○

Post by Blackstein »

That was a really good first episode.
Spoiler : My Thoughts :
I like how Michael is different from the major of the lawyers we have seen before, having a real presence in the court, even so it's his debut in the courtroom, and the power of vibration is really interesting and I look forward to the next mechanics.

Also is good to find another portuguese speaker like me, the fact that Engarde is again our client, but in the past, is neat, even more because we already know he's gonna screw up with Phoenix later, then already makes a bridge between Michael em Nick.

Was cool playing with Grossberg, I like it when we get to play with multiple characters in the cases, let us see the thoughts and perspectives of each one.

I like how de Killer is not all cool and stuff when comes to obvious lies, like the restaurant, or the time, where he became a little nervous.

Alongside the callback that Michael gave to the judge.

"Muito bom" foi bom demais. :calisto:

And then Marvin saying the translation for the english of "very good."

One problem with the evidence is the shovel, saying that Engarde used his left hand when was supposed to be the right hand. And you should revise the episode just to be sure you find some other mistakes that I saw, like one in the scene with Engarde and the mafia gangsters, where appeared a [p50] and in our talk with Engarde about Palacio too.

Dugal Trevas was gold and no burgers for you Grossberg, you need a diet.

Almost forgot about the music, seriously, I love each one that you have chosen for this case.

In general, episode 1 was really nice, not even the little errors that I mentioned could damage this piece of art and I'm hoping to play episode 2 as soon it gets out.
User avatar
Andrew_Truwfh
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:21 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, Portuguese
Location: Truwfh Law Agency

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ☆○○○○

Post by Andrew_Truwfh »

Blackstein wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:18 pm That was a really good first episode.
Spoiler : My Thoughts :
I like how Michael is different from the major of the lawyers we have seen before, having a real presence in the court, even so it's his debut in the courtroom, and the power of vibration is really interesting and I look forward to the next mechanics.

Also is good to find another portuguese speaker like me, the fact that Engarde is again our client, but in the past, is neat, even more because we already know he's gonna screw up with Phoenix later, then already makes a bridge between Michael em Nick.

Was cool playing with Grossberg, I like it when we get to play with multiple characters in the cases, let us see the thoughts and perspectives of each one.

I like how de Killer is not all cool and stuff when comes to obvious lies, like the restaurant, or the time, where he became a little nervous.

Alongside the callback that Michael gave to the judge.

"Muito bom" foi bom demais. :calisto:

And then Marvin saying the translation for the english of "very good."

One problem with the evidence is the shovel, saying that Engarde used his left hand when was supposed to be the right hand. And you should revise the episode just to be sure you find some other mistakes that I saw, like one in the scene with Engarde and the mafia gangsters, where appeared a [p50] and in our talk with Engarde about Palacio too.

Dugal Trevas was gold and no burgers for you Grossberg, you need a diet.

Almost forgot about the music, seriously, I love each one that you have chosen for this case.

In general, episode 1 was really nice, not even the little errors that I mentioned could damage this piece of art and I'm hoping to play episode 2 as soon it gets out.
Thanks a lot for the feedback and support!
Spoiler : :
I put some time into developing Michael so he is different, one thing I'm tired of is defense attorneys that get walked on and nearly abused in court, (even though I like all of them and still laugh when that happens sometimes) and tried to make the exact opposite with Michael, very glad to see people liked that and the vibration mechanic!

It is good to see another Portuguese speaker! Almost thought I was alone lol, I'm glad you liked the Engarde part of the plot, I just felt as though Engarde was a great villain and a terrible person, and wanted to see more of him, even though I love JFA and Farewell, My Turnabout, I really feel the lack of more Engarde and a major plot dragged throughout the game.

I also felt we saw too little of Grossberg, though he is made to be a not-so-good DA that gets labeled as such just for Mia's and Edgeworth's plot, but thought using him to show more of that would've been a great idea for the AA games, mainly in the original trilogy, since I suppose he is now dead. :grossberg:

Really glad you liked the jokes, I truly did my best to make them AA-like!

I didn't realize those mistakes, I'm honestly surprised I let those pass by me, though I admit not having much time to playtest the case. Anyway, thanks for reporting them, and they're as good as dust now!

I don't think I made it clear, (and really am not going to as the game has a certain pacing to solve that) but before the second case is released, I just want to say that Trevas is the main detective for the game, and is an important part of the plot.

Thanks a lot! I took a lot of time for composing some of the music, mainly because this is my first time, and they didn't turn out so well in my opinion, and took way too much work to be such small ambient details, but I'm really glad you enjoyed it.

Thank you so much! It makes me very happy to see people are enjoying this! And also over complimenting it, :calisto: Episode 2 will take a while as I'm fairly busy recently, but I promise it will come out, and that I'm working very hard on this! Again thanks for all the feedback and support!
Last edited by Andrew_Truwfh on Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Enthalpy
Community Manager
Posts: 5169
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:40 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, limited Spanish

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ●○○○○

Post by Enthalpy »

The QA reviewer who was originally assigned this QA was busier than expected, so I'll be taking over this one.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
User avatar
Enthalpy
Community Manager
Posts: 5169
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:40 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, limited Spanish

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ●○○○○

Post by Enthalpy »

I'm around halfway through the trial and very confused on one point.
Spoiler : :
The logic regarding "Kudo saw de Killer because tie" seems non sequitur. Let's assume that Kudo did see someone wearing the fake beard.

1. We have no reason to think that the person was trying to impersonate Cehr. Cehr's beard was black, and surely somebody trying to impersonate Cehr wouldn't have made that mistake.
2. We have no reason to think the tie belongs to de Killer's client. Why couldn't it be the victim's?
Why do we even think his client was there?
3. Even if the tie did belong to the real killer, how does this prove anything about the person who wore the beard?
4. We have no reason to think the person wearing the beard was de Killer.

What am I missing?
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
User avatar
Andrew_Truwfh
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:21 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, Portuguese
Location: Truwfh Law Agency

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ●○○○○

Post by Andrew_Truwfh »

Enthalpy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:45 pm I'm around halfway through the trial and very confused on one point.
Spoiler : :
The logic regarding "Kudo saw de Killer because tie" seems non sequitur. Let's assume that Kudo did see someone wearing the fake beard.

1. We have no reason to think that the person was trying to impersonate Cehr. Cehr's beard was black, and surely somebody trying to impersonate Cehr wouldn't have made that mistake.
2. We have no reason to think the tie belongs to de Killer's client. Why couldn't it be the victim's?
Why do we even think his client was there?
3. Even if the tie did belong to the real killer, how does this prove anything about the person who wore the beard?
4. We have no reason to think the person wearing the beard was de Killer.

What am I missing?
Oh boy, I didn't see this coming...
Spoiler : :
I completely see why this is confusing, and I will try and clarify that in the trial ASAP, meanwhile, I can give a brief explanation here.

1. Again, I really need to clarify this, but Michael believes someone was trying to impersonate Cehr because according to Kudo's testimony, this white beard person mentioned Engarde's "secret", which is something only Engarde, and his blackmailer (Cehr), would know at that point, besides, it is clear someone with a white beard was in the park, and the body wasn't there a the time, otherwise, Kudo would have realized it, I should also make that clearer, and, well, if the body was taken somewhere (likely somewhere near the crime scene), this impersonator didn't have much time, so he probably grabbed the beard as fast as possible, to try and make a witness before the body was found and this impersonator put under suspicion, but I do see how this is a bit far-fetched since it's just basically beard = Cehr.
2. This is a point I completely forgot to explain, but basically, the wound was on the back of Cehr's head, and he fell to his side, that way the blood couldn't get on his tie, while it was very likely for the blood to fall on the killer or someone else, since de Killer would probably erase all the evidence that could tie the murder to him, Michael assumes it actually belonged to his client, who was there at the time of the murder, and later tried to impersonate Cehr.
3. De Killer, as said before, would erase any evidence, which means he would get rid of the fake beard if he had used it to create a witness, meaning the only one who would impersonate Cehr, was his client, who is likely the owner of the tie, was the one who used the beard, this is also something I completely forgot to clarify.
4. After deducing someone impersonated Cehr, Michael thought the impersonator to be de Killer, but then changed his mind after realizing he would get rid of the evidence, though he would create a witness to protect his client, same logic as the tie, which would link those two to de Killer's client, of course this is just an assumption of his, while the prosecution treats that as just a possibility and prefers to claim they belong to de Killer, so that they don't have to actually trace the owner, which would probably result in less suspicion being cast on Engarde.

Overall, this is truly very confusing and I have to clarify and fix a few things in the trial, but that'll probably take some time, thanks for pointing this out though.
Image
User avatar
Enthalpy
Community Manager
Posts: 5169
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:40 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, limited Spanish

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ●○○○○

Post by Enthalpy »

I’ve finished the trial. One point I’d like clarification on before I write the review:
Spoiler : :
You said in some of your response to previous feedback that you intended for Michael to not be a pushover. He comes across to me as a bully. Was that intentional, or no?
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
User avatar
Andrew_Truwfh
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:21 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, Portuguese
Location: Truwfh Law Agency

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ●○○○○

Post by Andrew_Truwfh »

Enthalpy wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:59 pm I’ve finished the trial. One point I’d like clarification on before I write the review:
Spoiler : :
You said in some of your response to previous feedback that you intended for Michael to not be a pushover. He comes across to me as a bully. Was that intentional, or no?
Spoiler : :
Yes, Michael being a bully for this case was completely intentional, mostly to show how he's almost a complete opposite to other defense attorneys we see in the series
Image
User avatar
Enthalpy
Community Manager
Posts: 5169
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:40 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, limited Spanish

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ☆○○○○

Post by Enthalpy »

Next question: hopefully this isn't a bother!
Spoiler : :
What's the timeline of events at the crime scene? I can't come up with a timeline that's consistent.

According to the autopsy, the murder happened at 10AM. According to Kudo, he sees de Killer posing as Cehr at 2PM. According to Engarde, he found the crime scene at the same time as some "old man" being there, and according to Payne, that "old man" is Victor Kudo. According to Engarde, the body is there at the time. But Kudo's testimony doesn't mention a body, and Michael's summary at the end of the case says that there was a gap between Kudo seeing de Killer and Engarde's arrival, and it was in that gap that the body was put back and de Killer planted Engarde's fingerprints. (And Engarde also placed the fingerprints there himself when he arrived?)
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
User avatar
Andrew_Truwfh
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:21 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, Portuguese
Location: Truwfh Law Agency

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ☆○○○○

Post by Andrew_Truwfh »

Enthalpy wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:12 am Next question: hopefully this isn't a bother!
Spoiler : :
What's the timeline of events at the crime scene? I can't come up with a timeline that's consistent.

According to the autopsy, the murder happened at 10AM. According to Kudo, he sees de Killer posing as Cehr at 2PM. According to Engarde, he found the crime scene at the same time as some "old man" being there, and according to Payne, that "old man" is Victor Kudo. According to Engarde, the body is there at the time. But Kudo's testimony doesn't mention a body, and Michael's summary at the end of the case says that there was a gap between Kudo seeing de Killer and Engarde's arrival, and it was in that gap that the body was put back and de Killer planted Engarde's fingerprints. (And Engarde also placed the fingerprints there himself when he arrived?)
Not at all, I'm glad you're asking these.
Spoiler : :
What happened is simply that Kudo came back later, he just never got to testify about when he found the body, Engarde arrived a just after Kudo found the body, and was still there, Kudo or even de Killer could've called the police, and Engarde didn't get to put his fingerprints on the shovel, he wears a gloves and the cops found him just when he touched the shovel, meaning he never got to place his fingerprints on the shovel, just touch his palm on it at the very maximum. Not to mention Engarde's testimony was mostly a lie, since no one ever called him, he likely noticed the body before noticing Kudo, and he claims to just stand there in shock, which does raise suspicion but wouldn't make the police arrest him on the spot, but only after the fingerprints were found, he also never mentioned the time he arrived at the scene.
Image
User avatar
Enthalpy
Community Manager
Posts: 5169
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:40 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, limited Spanish

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ☆○○○○

Post by Enthalpy »

QA Review: The Dark Turnabout

Image
I think this is why it's called The Dark Turnabout, but I'm honestly not sure.
It's been a long while since we've had somebody attempt a series on AAO. Why that is has a great deal to do with this review. How, exactly? Answers below.
_____________________________________________________
This review breaks with my standard format.
Spoiler : Check #1 :
I'll tell you now that you didn't pass the inspection, primarily due to problems in the case logic. This review outlines the three major logic problems. This is going to be a fairly critical review, and I'm sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear. Yes, you succeeded at having a protagonist who is very different from the ones we're used to, and yes, it's impressive that you have custom sprites, a custom game mechanic, and custom music. But the logic is a core part of the case and deserves discussion.

The first issue is that the timeline of what actually happened doesn't make sense to me. Let me paraphrase Michael's summary of what actually happened (having this was a good idea!), augmented with the extra information from clarifications:

Ray Palacio is ordered by Judge Cehr to pay a large fine. He attempts to win a pricy golden award statue but loses out on it due to the schemes of rival contestant Matt Engarde. Palacio blackmails Engarde for the statue, hires de Killer to act as bodyguard, and arranges to meet with the judge to try to bribe him to reverse his decision. Presumably, the bribe is the statue. Engarde doesn't show up on time, so Palacio doesn't have the statue, but even if he did, Judge Cehr won't have any bribery. To cover his tracks, Palacio has de Killer kill Judge Cehr on the spot at 10 AM, and de Killer did so, using a shovel as an improvized weapon. In the process, blood stains Palacio's tie, so he leaves it at the scene.

de Killer moves the body out of sight, disguises himself as Judge Cehr, and at 2 o'clock, is seen by Victor Kudo pretending to call someone out to his location, which the prosecution takes to be him blackmailing Engarde. Kudo leaves, and de Killer takes the opportunity to plant the body and plant Engarde's fingerprints on the shovel and the body. de Killer calls the police, Kudo returns to see the body, Engarde finally arrives about this time, places his gloved hands on the shovel, and then the police arrive.


There are quite a few points in this timeline that don't make sense to me.
  • The backstory of the Palacio family doesn't seem plausible. If it's found in a court of law that the current monarchs are illegitimate, that cannot end with a fine. It will be strange for the court to not remove them, and the resulting unrest certainly will. Even worse, a fine will mean either higher taxes as the citizens pay the fine, or even worse, corruption as they solicit the funds from somebody outsider. Surely multi-millionaires would love to have the royal family deeply in their debt.
  • Palacio's choice to hire de Killer seems strange. First, why hire an assassin when you need a bodyguard? Second, why would he need one? The plan would be to take the statue from Engarde and then give it to Cehr, no?
  • Why would Palacio leave his tie at the crime scene? Surely he'd understand it's highly incriminating evidence? Surely de Killer would understand that is a terrible idea! If they have time to move a body, they have time to dispose of a tie properly.
  • The entire gambit of impersonating Cehr seems unmotivated. Remember, de Killer and Palacio can't predict Kudo returning to the crime scene or Engarde showing up either! The best they can reliably get is Kudo testifying that Cehr called someone out to the scene, but not knowing who. They then check Cehr's phone to see who he called, only to find he called nobody. If they're lucky, they can get a fake window on the time of death, but de Killer should know that won't line up with the actual time of death. Even worse, for all they know, Engarde has an alibi!
  • Moving the body should also mean wiping away a lot of blood. Why don't the police notice an unusually small blood pool around the wound? I think this has an easy fix: have this be mentioned in the autopsy.
  • Why would de Killer have used a white beard for the disguise? He knew Cehr's beard was actually black!
  • Why would Kudo not have realized the beard color was wrong when he saw the body the second time? Was the corpse face down, so Kudo couldn't see the beard the second time?
  • How could de Killer possibly have planted Engarde's prints when Engarde wasn't even around?
  • Why didn't the police notice that the corpse seemed hours old as soon as they got on the scene? That conflicts with Kudo's story of this having happened a few moments ago. As a point of comparison, in 3-2, the police had to mistake a corpse that had been dead for 0.5 hours for one dead for 1.5 hours. That I can believe.
Point two, witnesses tell lies for reasons that aren't clear.
  • Why does de Killer say the murder occurred at noon? He has to place the time of death at 2 PM to align with Kudo's testimony, and at 10 AM to align with the actual time of death. He should know both of those.
  • Why would de Killer say Engarde used his left hand? Surely if he planted right-handed fingerprints, he'd know Engarde should have used his right hand to handle the shovel.
  • Why would de Killer be so wrong about the contents of the blackmail letter? If he has no knowledge of its contents, why does he make it up at all? If he has knowledge of its contents, why is it so wrong?
  • Why does Palacio say that he has no idea who Engarde is? That's an obvious lie, and an unnecessary one. He could just say he knew he was another actor at Global Studios, and one who had a good showing at awards.
Point three, Michael's deductions frequently don't follow from the actual evidence. I've already discussed this some with the question of the tie, but this occurs at every single point from then on when Michael tries to explain some aspect of the crime. I think this is entangled with the other points I've mentioned, so I don't think it would be helpful to elaborate. I can, if you want me to.
Spoiler : Check #2 :
Not performed.
Spoiler : VERDICT :
☆ The QA inspection is complete. This case is not good enough to be featured. Sorry!

Coming up with a good mystery is hard, and so is presenting it as a trial. This trial slips up at those two steps. But trying to write five cases that do that, with a bigger story that connects them all, is much much harder yet. While I appreciate that a lot of effort went into making custom sprites, mechanics, and music, those make a mechnically solid case great. They don't overcome a case that isn't mechanically solid in the first place.

I'm perfectly happy to talk about next steps and what this means for the rest of the series if you wish, but at this stage, I think it's appropriate for me to ask how you feel about all this.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
User avatar
Enthalpy
Community Manager
Posts: 5169
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:40 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, limited Spanish

Re: [T]Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney: Clash of Justice - ☆○○○○

Post by Enthalpy »

Any thoughts on the review? I'm happy to discuss anything, if you'd like.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
Post Reply