Competition Rules Changes Discussion

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Gamer2002
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by Gamer2002 »

If the purpose of the comps is to energize us to post more, then two months are the solution. But if we want to drive in more users through comps, then admins need to post on the main site news about the comps starting and ending.
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¿Acid Rain?
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by ¿Acid Rain? »

Someone mentioned R E M in this thread so I'm obligated to post I guess.

Is it the purpose of these competitions to facilitate the creation of NEW cases or to facilitate the creation of COMPLETE cases? What's more important in the current state of the site?

Also:

From what I've seen and experienced, the most intimidating thing about joining a competition as a new user isn't that you need to complete a work within a time limit, it's that you have to create a work using an engine that you are presumably unfamiliar with to compete against presumably more experienced users. I don't think that the length of a comp has ever had a major influence on whether a new user signs up or not; most people drop out because their work isn't up to their satisfaction or because their time management is so atrocious that they wouldn't have gotten anywhere in four months. Maybe I'm wrong. Whether or not the time limit affects an experienced user or not is on a personal basis, so I can't comment. I don't think I would personally care. (I started working on TTT a month into evo's comp, if I'm remembering right.)
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bigwins
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by bigwins »

Weighing in on #3, I think it's a worthwhile change. I have waiting until the judging period finishes as a rule in my comp purely because it's been used so frequently that I'd kind of figured it was just a normal rule. I'd definitely much prefer being able to play cases before reading the reviews or seeing the awards ceremony (at the author's discretion, of course) just so I have context for what I'm hearing about it. After all, we usually watch the Oscars so we can see if the movies we liked won anything, etc.

Basically I'm asking if it's too late to change my comp's rules :P
Gamer2002
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by Gamer2002 »

Someone mentioned R E M in this thread so I'm obligated to post I guess.
If I knew that mentioning it would bring you back I'd do it more often.
Is it the purpose of these competitions to facilitate the creation of NEW cases or to facilitate the creation of COMPLETE cases? What's more important in the current state of the site?
Encouraging creativity that produces cases that also encourage creativity. Showing what can be done with the engine can motivate people to try it out themselves. And I believe that complete cases are more effective at that, since I myself got burned enough times with incomplete works that never got finished. Simply put, if people know ahead that something is incomplete (and we always warn them, thought that's for the better), it's harder for them to want to get invested enough to try it out.
From what I've seen and experienced, the most intimidating thing about joining a competition as a new user isn't that you need to complete a work within a time limit, it's that you have to create a work using an engine that you are presumably unfamiliar with to compete against presumably more experienced users.
And the first thing that new users learn from our main site's help section is that we don't have help section (unless they dive into the forums). Fortunately, AAO is simple enough to jump in, especially if you know AA gameplay. But wanting to get new users through comps without help section is like encouraging people to join a skating rink through figure skating competitions, when you don't even let people to borrow skates near the entry.

And the old version of the site had manual. I remember reading it when I joined.
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SuperAj3
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by SuperAj3 »

I joined after Ann-nna expressed interest in the current topic but was worried about finishing it in time, so I offered to help.
I'm just thinking about ways to make this less intimidating for users, and maybe:
  • Encourage group projects: People can still enter solo, but encourage teams of 2 or 3 so people who want to enter could either join another team, or ask for help. (Although that would depend on how frequently users would allow others to join their projects and may alienate users who are new to AAO and unconfident in entering solo).
  • Have a "newcomer" and "veteran" tier system for the results: first time entrants could be judged under more relaxed criteria, without feeling like they'll always be overshadowed by more active competitors. Newcomers can still win, but if they don't, the best newcomer could either assist in picking a theme or judge the following comp. (The only downsides I see to this are that it could be too complex, and some users might find it unfair.)
I like a 3 month deadline. It gave us enough time to find the comp and still feel like we could make something before the deadline. Trial-only as a mandatory condition may not be the best idea for some people but should be made clear as a possibility for people to consider.
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Gamer2002
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by Gamer2002 »

Encourage group projects
I think group projects are already allowed.
Have a "newcomer" and "veteran" tier system for the results
Not a bad idea, but co-hosting seems too much. Not to mention, big league winner may not end up liking that...

Hm. How about a semi-feature for competitions winners? Published winning entries don't become featured trials, but become competition winner and entry level competition winner. Clicking Games on main site still will lead to featured trials, but there will be also a button for competition winners and entry level competition winners. There also will be a description that competition winners don't have to be on the level of featured trials (unless they become featured as well), and entry level competition winners are just what wins among the newcomers. This will also give a reason to post news about competitions and their results.

Of course, newcomers should be allowed to forfeit their newcomer status, before the judging, if they wish to automatically join the big league.

Only admins need to keep an eye on potential smurfs. But asides from that, BRILLIANT! Everybody becomes hyped for competitions, people that win competitions are motivated to release their winning entries, and AAO is saved.
Big league competition winner status for Turnabout Imperfect please
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SuperAj3
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by SuperAj3 »

Gamer2002 wrote:
Encourage group projects
I think group projects are already allowed.
When I say "encourage" I mean to make things like that more clear, and repeat it as an option for those who post saying "I want to enter but I don't think I'll finish it in time". If someone says that, instead of letting things go, you could offer a team as an alternative. Respond with "maybe ask some entrants if you could join a team with them?" or "Someone else had the same worry last comp, try PMing them and see if you could team up?". (That is, if people are comfortable with working with strangers). Some people may be more willing to post an expression of interest this way instead of seeing the comp, thinking it's too hard, then never checking back. An extra week of "Team formation time" could also be something to add. (At risk of extending things any longer).

But yeah in the end this all comes down to personal preference, so I don't know how to implement this one properly XD
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DWaM
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by DWaM »

I like the idea of the veteran/newcomer system. But the thing about Gamer's addition to it is that I feel like before going with the "competition winners" tab, the Featured Trials section itself should be cleaned up a bit, so as to not have all the links of every part listed. Once that's there, it'll lessen the clutter and be easy enough to navigate and replicate in the Comp Winners section. (That said, this may not necessarily work depending if a lot of the entrants aren't comfortable making public releases after the fact, or if the winners turn out to be pretty incomplete.)

I do agree that the main page could also do with posting information about ongoing competitions.
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by clcman »

DWaM wrote:the Featured Trials section itself should be cleaned up a bit, so as to not have all the links of every part listed.
I agree that Featured Trials probably needs to be modernized. At the very least, we need to make sure that all of the trials and their links still work. (I believe some of them are broken, and for the older cases, probably permanently.)
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Enthalpy
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by Enthalpy »

I'm not going to respond to every point, simply because there's been so much. It looks like I have a to-do list.
Southern Corn wrote:Some judges might also have issues playing on other case makers.
That's fair. Under this proposal, it would be a rule that the burden of ensuring their engine is playable by the judges falls on the entrant.
Gamer2002 wrote:So, we can end up with unreleased cases if we don't give people time to make them during competitions.
That's a good observation. It may worthwhile to make "I'll Face Myself", or some competition like it, recurring. Users can progress on an old, unfinished case as their entry, if they show their current progress to the judge ASAP.
Gamer2002 wrote:Do you want to tempt people like me every single month?!
A month is too short. The lowest I'd consider is two months.
Gamer2002 wrote:But if we want to drive in more users through comps, then admins need to post on the main site news about the comps starting and ending.
...Which I can easily do, now that you mention it. Good idea.
¿Acid Rain? wrote:Is it the purpose of these competitions to facilitate the creation of NEW cases or to facilitate the creation of COMPLETE cases? What's more important in the current state of the site?
A good question, and one that's worth discussion.
bigwins wrote:Basically I'm asking if it's too late to change my comp's rules
I'll allow this one.
Gamer2002 wrote:And the first thing that new users learn from our main site's help section is that we don't have help section (unless they dive into the forums). Fortunately, AAO is simple enough to jump in, especially if you know AA gameplay. But wanting to get new users through comps without help section is like encouraging people to join a skating rink through figure skating competitions, when you don't even let people to borrow skates near the entry.

And the old version of the site had manual. I remember reading it when I joined.
Which we wanted to add, bu that never actually happened. I think I could adapt drvonkitty's guide for that purpose.
SuperAj3 wrote:Have a "newcomer" and "veteran" tier system for the results: first time entrants could be judged under more relaxed criteria, without feeling like they'll always be overshadowed by more active competitors.
I like the idea, but I'm not sure about the implementation. I'll mull over this some more, but perhaps we add a "Best Non-Veteran Entry" award in addition to "Best Entry"?
DWaM wrote:But the thing about Gamer's addition to it is that I feel like before going with the "competition winners" tab, the Featured Trials section itself should be cleaned up a bit, so as to not have all the links of every part listed.
clcman wrote:At the very least, we need to make sure that all of the trials and their links still work. (I believe some of them are broken, and for the older cases, probably permanently.)
Both of which do need to be done, yes. The first point is on me, but the second would be for BP and I. I don't think it would take that long for us to get that done...
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Southern Corn
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by Southern Corn »

It may worthwhile to make "I'll Face Myself", or some competition like it, recurring. Users can progress on an old, unfinished case as their entry, if they show their current progress to the judge ASAP.
This would certainly be interesting, and I'd like to see it in the future. I could even participate in one of these seeing as how my cases still need a lot of work to finish.

That said, it should probably be made not too common, as otherwise we may not get as many entrants. Probably better to leave the themes to the judge, as always.
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by enigma »

With the proposal of other engines, I think this does create a question of what exactly AAO is a community for. Is it necessarily a place for Ace Attorney fangames, or is it a place for interactive mystery fiction in general? (For the sake of convenience, since the proposal itself seems to necessarily rebuke it, I am not considering "a place for AAO engine made fangames.")

If we consider it the former, the fact is a considerable portion of AAO productions tend towards being entirely separate from Ace Attorney in story and/or gameplay. If we open to a larger population of engines and editors, would there need to be restrictions in what can be made and presented? If so, would those restrictions apply only to non-AAO creators, or to the community as a whole?

If we accept the latter, I have to wonder why the specific restriction to just casemaking engines. Certainly, AAO is dedicated to an AA fangame engine but I'm not sure what the rationale/justification behind... say... not allowing an AA fangame made in VN Maker or GameMaker Studio or Twine is? Though, then we ask how much leeway there is in deviation from AA gameplay, narrative and style... Is a complete departure in one or two categories okay? In just one? Or is this more a community under the general banner of ostensibly AA-inspired "general interactive mystery fiction"?

I'm completely for the change, fwiw, but I think it needs to be clear how it will apply and what the philosophy behind it is.
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by Gamer2002 »

(That said, this may not necessarily work depending if a lot of the entrants aren't comfortable making public releases after the fact, or if the winners turn out to be pretty incomplete.)
The prize for winning competitions is being able to get that semi-featured status if you finish your work. Perhaps somebody lazy may try to push incomplete entries through loopholes. Perhaps the winning entry may end up not being that good. But this status is only "this case won this and this comp, we don't guarantee the quality of featured cases", so I think there isn't that much to worry.
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by Enthalpy »

enigma wrote:With the proposal of other engines, I think this does create a question of what exactly AAO is a community for. Is it necessarily a place for Ace Attorney fangames, or is it a place for interactive mystery fiction in general? (For the sake of convenience, since the proposal itself seems to necessarily rebuke it, I am not considering "a place for AAO engine made fangames.")
"Place for" is ambiguous. The priority of the forums is the AAO engine: presenting AAO cases, discussing AAO cases, helping people make AAO cases. We welcome other things, but it's not the main purpose of the forums. The "proposal of other engines" is, more fully, "proposal that we allow entries in other entries into case competitions." In the heat of the casemaker wars of old, this would have been feeding attention to other engines, but I'm of the opinion that with the current state of the trialmaking scene, we gain more in terms of demonstrating the scene is still active than we lose in terms of potential AAO users who defect to some other engine.
enigma wrote:If we consider it the former, the fact is a considerable portion of AAO productions tend towards being entirely separate from Ace Attorney in story and/or gameplay. If we open to a larger population of engines and editors, would there need to be restrictions in what can be made and presented? If so, would those restrictions apply only to non-AAO creators, or to the community as a whole?
I need you to clarify. You can still make and present anything you want. The only thing this proposal changes is what is and what is not an allowable case competition entry. Are you asking if non-AA entries in a non-AAO engine would be allowed as competition entries?
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Re: Competition Rules Changes Discussion

Post by enigma »

Sorry, allow me to clarify. I'm referring only in reference to these competitions. To put it simply, it can be boiled down to three questions:
  • How far from AAO can entrants stray in choice of engine, and why? (Strict: AAO, Lenient: PyWright, Open: Gamemaker, Unorthodox: Powerpoint, etc.)
  • How far from AA can entrants deviate in regards to content, and why? (Strict: AA, Lenient: Mystery Visual Novels, Open: RPG, etc.)
  • Does/should one have bearing on the other?
For context, it seems to me there shouldn't be much difference between an AA case made in PyWright and VN Maker or an RPG made in AAO compared to one made in PyWright but it becomes blurrier when you start considering... say... Entering a Ghost Trick fangame made in Gamemaker. So I think it needs to be clear, again in regards to this rule/competitions and not the overall forum as a whole, how the boundaries should be defined to best suit the philosophy behind this (aka. encouraging more activity and creation within the comps/community.)
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