The "Change My Mind" Thread

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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Ok, I think people have covered kwand's position pretty well, and at the moment I mostly can't think of compelling arguments for the other suggestions, so here's a couple of my own. Three for a general audience, and then two ones- one for for Hersh in particular and one for Sleuth and DSY in particular. (I can support any of these with lengthy rationales if you want more elaboration on what exactly you're arguing against.)

1. I think that Madoka Kaname is easily the worst character in PMMM and completely fails at being a compelling protagonist.
2. Madoka Magica focuses on the suffering of its characters to such an extent that it feels like the show revels in it to a disturbing extent.
3. Although under-utilized, I do think that Asuna is a decent character.

And then the seeecret ones.
Spoiler : For Hersh in particular :
Convince me that the first seventeen chapters of the SL manga are good, not in comparison to the anime, but just as a general work of fiction.
Spoiler : For Sleuth/DSY in Particular :
Although the characterization in Symphogear has its rough patches, I believe that on a whole Symphogear does a good job at crafting interesting characters with fun, entertaining character dynamics.
"With good friends by your side, anything is possible. If you really care for each other, it makes everyone stronger! Then you'll have the will to succeed! The world is filled with painful things, it's sad sometimes, and you won't be able to handle it by yourself. But just know: If there's someone that you love, you'll stay on the right path. And you won't ever give in! As long as you keep that person in your heart, you'll keep getting back up. Understand? That's why a Hero never loses!"
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by Enthalpy »

gotMLK7 wrote:I'll try to think of some good arguments for other challenges in a bit but for now let's give a big ol' challenge to you.

Chang my mind about Teen Titans Go.

(This is a serious one btw; while I never expect to like TTG, I'd love some counterpoint to my issues with it for a new perspective I could at least consider in reviews.)
I'm fairly sure you've heard "It's just a kid's show" and "It's just your opinion" countless times, so directly to something more substantive:

Teen Titans Go is a bad show, but it's not interestingly bad. You claim that "The mistakes this show makes are mistakes that people can learn from," but these mistakes aren't thought-provoking or edifying for anybody who really cares about writing. The mistakes are trivial. To demonstrate the point, I randomly selected five of your reviews:

All you could get from Driver's Ed was that irredeemable jerk characters make bad protagonists. This might be useful for writers at Nickelodeon, but for most people, this is common sense. From Lazy Sunday, we learn that dull and pointless is bad, which is also obvious. Legendary Sandwich, we again get that irredeemable jerk characters are bad. Super Robin gives us more than the previous ones, but these are also common sense. Irredeemable jerks again, having an infinite well of deus ex machina is bad, filler and bad pacing are bad, and being cruel to your characters is bad. Again, all of these are common sense. Finally, Starfire the Terrible. Ignoring continuity is bad, completely unmotivated and stupidly fast character development are bad, and irredeemable jerks are bad.

None of these complaints need explanation, and they're not useful to anybody who doesn't have a deeper problem, which the creators of Teen Titans Go definitely have.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by gotMLK7 »

Some of my own arguments for the challenges listed thus far:

Kwando's Shonen Issue

The best way to look at shonen is as popcorn material. It's the equivalent to the Marvel Universe movies. People love them because they're full of action, characters that are simple but have memorable quirks and occasionally backstories, there's cool powers, and there's always more to come. Thinking too hard about it, yeah, it doesn't hold up well as particularly interesting, but when you want something that you can just watch for some good ol' fun that you can basically jump into and be easily able to talk about with friends, shonen's a pretty good option. Just like action films and Marvel movies they're certainly not for everyone, but there's a charm to them when you just want something fun and simple that you can just binge for hours and follow for years.

NN Point 3: Asuna Good?

Assuming you mean Asuna from Sword Art Online, I'd be inclined to agree with you until she and Kirito hook up. Note that I haven't seen the second half of SAO2 yet, but given what I know of the franchise, I'm inclined to disagree. Here's the thing about Asuna. She just stops having personality once she's with Kirito. She starts the series off pretty tsundere and sassy, she had a sharp tongue at times and showed at least a distinct personality. But with Kirito she acts completely differently, she acts all...wifely. She's just kind of constantly pleasant around him. Then in Alfheim she's a LITTLE better on her own since she attempts to do things but still doesn't show much actual personality throughout, at least to the degree as in the start of the series. But then throughout the ENTIRE GGO arc, she's just sorta smiling on the side and doesn't actually feel like she has the same personality at ALL as she initially did. Again, I can't comment on Mother's Rosario, but the issue that covers the entire series with Asuna's character is a lack of consistency. She simply does not preserve a consistent personality that can be seen throughout the whole series. She acts how the story wants her to act at any given time, and while more utilization would be nice, it doesn't help much when her character as a whole doesn't actually have a ton you can talk about that can apply to her throughout the series entirety. Sometimes she's strong and sometimes she's not! Sometimes she's sassy and sometimes she's pleasant! Sometimes she's hotheaded and sometimes she's the cool and composed one! Compare her demeanor in the SAO and the GGO arcs to see what I mean. Her problem isn't that she's simply pushed to the side too much, it's that the writers aren't consistent enough with her to give her many character traits that feel consistent for her as a whole, and that's why I have an issue with her: she's less her own character and more whatever the plot wants "main girl" to be at any given time.

In response to Enth's TTG argument:

Fair enough, though I still argue that the show serves as a good example. After all, common sense is never quite as common as one may seem. There's still plenty of questionable content in the series worth examining to see issue in, after all, and I'd argue that BECAUSE it feels so "common sense" and yet is still done makes it a good means to being used as a diagram of sorts for issues that bog down stories like it or even unlike it. After all, if such obvious flaws are so omnipresent in CN's highest grossing show, clearly they aren't quite as obvious as we would like to believe.

Though I also guess I should have been more specific in what I wanted, too. I'd like to have a counterargument for my claim that Teen Titans Go is a bad show. An argument that at least justifies the show (past its high ratings and the aforementioned "well it distracts the kiddies" argument) on some degree despite my own stance on it. So if anyone else feels like tackling the challenge, that'd be what I'd like focus on.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by TheDoctor »

In the vein of the Teen Titans Go request, I think Robin is a ridiculous and pointless character that only serves to steal Batman's spotlight and make him more "kid friendly." I don't mind Nightwing so much, but Robin, by all rights, shouldn't exist.

Anyone care to convince me otherwise?
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Spoiler : Response to Got- SAO spoilers :
gotMLK7 wrote: Assuming you mean Asuna from Sword Art Online, I'd be inclined to agree with you until she and Kirito hook up. Note that I haven't seen the second half of SAO2 yet, but given what I know of the franchise, I'm inclined to disagree. Here's the thing about Asuna. She just stops having personality once she's with Kirito. She starts the series off pretty tsundere and sassy, she had a sharp tongue at times and showed at least a distinct personality.
This is going to be a bit tricky because I will admit a good chunk of my argument relies on things that occur in Mother's Rosario, but I can try and see if I can make a case without that, though a good deal of it is going to be Devil's Advocatey.
gotMLK7 wrote:But with Kirito she acts completely differently, she acts all...wifely. She's just kind of constantly pleasant around him. Then in Alfheim she's a LITTLE better on her own since she attempts to do things but still doesn't show much actual personality throughout, at least to the degree as in the start of the series.
I think that Asuna does act really deferential to Kirito, it's true, but there are still a couple cases where she does stand up for herself and kinda dictate the relationship. Not in major ways, but there are little things- you see a couple of them in the episode where they find Yui and start all that stuff. And I would say that she does show some personality when she's around Yui: she shows that she does have a sort of soft, mothering side. Now you can argue that that is a stereotypical trait and I'd totally agree, but it IS character.

I think that one thing that we need to keep in mind with Asuna is that as far as we can tell (And I will say that MR does basically confirm this), she doesn't really have any friends prior to SAO. She really isolates herself at the beginning of the show and then when she becomes one of the top people in her guild, she puts on an all-business persona that allows her to keep her distance from other people. And then she meets Kirito, somebody who is willing to protect her and help her, which is the kind of thing that she has never really experienced before, or at least not to this extent. So in the end, on some level I think she might have been a bit afraid of being adversarial to Kirito because she believed she might scare him away and she really didn't want to lose him.

I was going to try and defend Asuna's character in Alfheim, but I've realized that basically any argument I make is really devil's advocatey, and so I shouldn't be making it in defense of my position. The way Asuna's character is portrayed in Alfheim was an awful idea from start-to-finish. I suppose all I can really say is that she does do what she can, but in the end she was simply in a situation that she thought was completely out of her control and genuinely believed that Kirito was her only hope. And in that case, there really isn't that much personality she can really show- she does try and put up a tough front around Sugou and not totally give in, despite how hopeless the entire situation is, and that is to her credit. But I definitely do feel that Alfheim is probably the low point to her character and I wish it just didn't exist because it would make this argument a lot easier.
gotMLK7 wrote:But then throughout the ENTIRE GGO arc, she's just sorta smiling on the side and doesn't actually feel like she has the same personality at ALL as she initially did. Again, I can't comment on Mother's Rosario, but the issue that covers the entire series with Asuna's character is a lack of consistency. She simply does not preserve a consistent personality that can be seen throughout the whole series.
I do feel like Mother's Rosario does a good job at really making Asuna's character feel more whole and have a sort of coherence to it, but let's try and justify things without it and see how far we can get.

It's worth noting that Asuna doesn't appear that much in GGO to begin with- she's really only in a handful of scenes. But in the end, there really isn't that much she can do. In the end, Kirito didn't want to put Asuna in danger in case the Death Gun thing was legitimate. This is something I completely disagree with, but it's what he did. And thus he kept vital information from Asuna that would have convinced him that she had to go with Kirito. And after that? There is basically absolutely nothing she could do. The entire situation was out of her control and her only option is to just pray that Kirito will make it out okay. Again, her character is massively underutilized here and I'd be really interested in seeing how GGO would have played out if Asuna had convinced Kirito to let her go with him, but in the end there both isn't a lot of time for her to show character, and not much for her character to do by the time things get bad.
gotMLK7 wrote:She acts how the story wants her to act at any given time, and while more utilization would be nice, it doesn't help much when her character as a whole doesn't actually have a ton you can talk about that can apply to her throughout the series entirety. Sometimes she's strong and sometimes she's not! Sometimes she's sassy and sometimes she's pleasant! Sometimes she's hotheaded and sometimes she's the cool and composed one! Compare her demeanor in the SAO and the GGO arcs to see what I mean. Her problem isn't that she's simply pushed to the side too much, it's that the writers aren't consistent enough with her to give her many character traits that feel consistent for her as a whole, and that's why I have an issue with her: she's less her own character and more whatever the plot wants "main girl" to be at any given time.
This is a decently compelling argument, but I think that I can construct a general Asuna character that works throughout the series.

At the beginning, Asuna is somebody who is, in the end, incredibly lonely. From what we can tell in Alfheim she has basically no friends- we never see anybody visit her in the hospital at any rate outside of her parents and Sugou. And on some level her parents honestly don't seem to respect her own autonomy, given that they're willing to basically let her get married to Sugou without her having a thing to say about it. So in the beginning she acts distant and hostile towards others because she doesn't really know how to interact with people or make friends. Then she meets Kirito, somebody who goes out of his way to try and be open to her and help her as much as he can. This is something that Asuna hasn't really experienced before, as far as we know. And then eventually, because of things we don't see more or less, she falls in love.

This is something that is decently new to her, actually having somebody besides family that she deeply cares about, who deeply cares about her in return. So she becomes more passive and clingy, because she is simply scared that if she isn't, she'll end up driving Kirito away. Then Alfheim happens, and she's thrown into a position she feels is simply beyond her control and is a problem she can't fix. (Which she logically should have been able to quite easily, but hey I never claimed Alfheim was well-written.) So she relies on Kirito, because she doesn't know what else to do. In GGO she doesn't really have the opportunity to do much- Kirito convinces her that there's no need to get involved and that he has the whole situation handled, and at the time she has no real reason to disbelieve him. And by the time things get bad, pretty much all she can do is just sit and hope that things work out, because the situation is this time genuinely beyond her control.

Now this doesn't make for a perfect character, or even that great a character, but she's still functional and decently consistent.
Noe to try and take on the TTG challenge

The thing about TTG is that it is, in essence, a farce comedy. That's all it's trying to be. You can complain about the characters being simplistic and lacking nuance, but the thing is that the show isn't trying to construct complex characters and have comedy based off their complex interactions. Now that would definitely be preferable, but it's not the direction that the series chose to go. So the characters are going to lack depth, because nuanced characters would simply be a hindrance to the kind of comedy that the show is going for. You can argue that the morals are awful, but in the end TTG isn't trying to be a show that delivers life lessons for kids, the morals are supposed to be awful- that's part of the joke. It's constructed like Family Guy- the morals in an episode of Family Guy are often terrible, but that's typically part of the point. The TTG plots are often incredibly dumb, but that's part of the humor- the plots being dumb is part of the joke. Now you can argue that the jokes aren't funny, that's perfectly fair. But it's best to approach TTG from the perspective of what it's trying to be- not a plot-heavy, character-driven series like SU, but a farcical show more in the vein of like, Family Guy.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by enigma »

Let's get dangerous... Attempting to change BB's SS ranked opinion!
Spoiler : BB :
If you don't mind, I'm going to tackle this in the form of both an argument and a bit of a little story... It makes it easier to follow, I think?

Be L'il Fukawa. A person who is ignored on a good day and hated on a bad day. This child is like an egg, that will one day spawn the hostile and defensive Fukawa we know today. But, tell me, what do we know of this egg? What can we see about Fukawa's life from her ingrqained mentalities?

Let's start with her friendships. We can tell she didn't have many, no, that the concept is basically alien to her from how she reacts to Naegi calling her one.
Fukawa wrote: Huh?! Wh-What did you just say?!
That's genuine shock and surprise, her irritation after only further hammers home the amount of disbelief she feels. There's an even better way to see this. Kokoronpa! I don't think it's in the english versions (or maybe it is?) but Kokoronpa is an event that can happen if you're good enough friends with someone in which you have a literal debate/crross-examination of their innermost thoughts/feelings. That's right! For once, you can literally read Fukawa's thoughts!

Fukawa wrote: Why does Naegi…. Keep spending time with someone like me…

He’s getting my hopes up for nothing…
That's not an act, that is genuine self-loathing. But more than that, is the fact that we can tell from that second quote that Fukawa DOES want to be friends. After all, you can't get your hopes up for something you don't want, right? In fact, Fukawa has basically based her life, her becoming an SHSL writer, around a few kind words from a teacher. How desperate for, well, kindness must you be to devote all your energy to something from a few kind words.

So, let's get back to L'il Fukawa. She's got no friends, despite the fact that she does want them, and is hated... Oh? Hold on. I'm wrong. She DID have a friend. The boy who would go on to be her first love... However, he was leaving to another town. The one person who had ever been kind to her... Fukawa realised it was now or never and confessed to him with a note.
Dangan Wiki wrote:Being too shy to tell him in person, she instead wrote him a letter. The next day, Toko found said letter mounted on the bulletin board, believing it was the boy's way of making a mockery of her. This was confirmed to her when she talked to him again and he said he hated talking to her and was always made fun of because of it.
Be Li'l Fukawa. Be crushed. No-one was ever your friend, in fact, everyone hates you. But more than that, and this is important, being friends with someone hurts THEM. That's right, being friends with someone doesn't just hurt you, it's also something which simply destroys their lives too. Hell, this could explain her relationship with Togami. Someone who doesn't care about her, could never be hurt by her, right?

In any case, it didn't just metaphorically ruin this boys life. No... It literally kills him. This is where we introduce the most important factor of the Fukawa story. Enter, Genocider Syo.

I find it's implied simply from Syo's nature and description that they killed this boy, Fukawa's one "friend". In fact, the wiki confirms this to be true.
Dangan Wiki wrote:At some point, Genodice Jack chased the boy all the way to Shikoku and killed him.
Now, considering that Genocider remembers things that Fukawa doesn't and vice versa it's safe to say that Fukawa didn't come to the realization that she had a serial killing split persona from the start. Instead, she probably came to standing in front of her former friend/crush nailed to a wall and dripping blood.
Syo's Profiling Results wrote:The culprit stayed at the scene of the crime for a long time, but also [...] they escaped from it in a state of aggravation.
So, Fukawa had to piece Syo's existence from her blanks in memory and her suddenly appearing at the crime scene. After all, the fact that she was trying to lock herself in after Chihiro's death shows that she both worked it out, and wanted to avoid it happening. I can imagine she felt guilty, afraid... With her non-stop self loathing the sheer amount it must have weighed on her, the guilt and hate, would have been enormous.

Be L'il Fukawa. Anyone you fall for will die. Anyone who befriends you will have their life ruined. Becoming friends with people will hurt you. You have a monster in you, and it keeps getting out...

Touko Fukawa is a hostile, self-loathing creature. She's hostile and defensive. But, hell, that's the only way to be. When befriending you will literally kill them at worst, or ruin their life at least... Maybe that's the only way to be. So, yes. Fukawa is self-loathing and rude, but to some point, it's arguably a defense mechanism. Arguably earned, even!

By being how she is, Fukawa is protecting both herself and "everyone else".
S-Ranked Challenge!

I think Higurashi is better than Umineko. Change my mind!

Also! A set of SS-Ranked challenges from me!
Spoiler : SS-Ranked! Not for the faint of heart! :
A) Change my mind about Pearl Fey.
B) Change my mind about Regina Berry.
C) Change my mind about Chihiro Fujisaki.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : enigma SS Challenge A :
Pearl Fey is friendly, adorable, and fleshes out Maya Fey as a character, humanizing her further and giving her additional back story and motivations. Pearl Fey's existence is what really demonstrates Maya's bouts of selflessness and love for those close to her.

Additionally, without Pearl, we probably wouldn't have Trucy, since it's Phoenix's experience with Pearl that makes it possible for him to adopt a young girl and manage to improv his way through caring for her for seven years.

Pearl additionally humanizes Morgan Fey, grounding Morgan's motivations to plot against Maya in some level of twisted, self-serving love and making the mystery of Kurain all the more interesting.

...Yeah, that's probably not anything you haven't already heard, huh? I guess I don't know what you're looking for.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by enigma »

Spoiler : Rebuttal :
Calvinball wrote:Pearl Fey is friendly, adorable...


By what measure is a character adorable? And by what measure does friendliness hold over the worth of a character? How cute a character is, is a subjective measure. In fact, it is almost universally true that every "cute" character has an equal amount of people who find the very things that make them cute irritating or annoying. But, more than that, a character who is cute and kind isn't necessarily a character who is well-written, deep or interesting. These qualities, to me, are more or less rendered moot in my judgement of a characters worth.
Calvinball wrote:and fleshes out Maya Fey as a character, humanizing her further and giving her additional back story and motivations. Pearl Fey's existence is what really demonstrates Maya's bouts of selflessness and love for those close to her.
However, did Maya need more humanising? The first game, it could be argued, was just as much about Maya's struggle as Phoenix or Edgeworth's. We watched her grow from a solemn, sad girl who had lost her sister to a plucky assistant with serious self esteem issues. We learnt what made her tick, and we learnt what made her human.

Pearl merely serves to confirm what we already knew. Maya is a good person who tries to help others, just as she helped her sister and just as she helped Phoenix.
Calvinball wrote:Additionally, without Pearl, we probably wouldn't have Trucy, since it's Phoenix's experience with Pearl that makes it possible for him to adopt a young girl and manage to improv his way through caring for her for seven years.
From a meta-PoV is that really true? Is it really impossible Phoenix couldn't have raised Trucy without his experience with Pearl? He certainly never alluded to or made reference to Pearl, in my memory, during Apollo Justice. And considering Trucy was looking after Phoenix as much as he looked after her... In any case, would the story really have been affected if Phoenix hadn't have looked after Pearl? Considering I played AJ first of the games and I never questioned Phoenix raising Trucy, I'm inclined to say no.
calvinball wrote:Pearl additionally humanizes Morgan Fey, grounding Morgan's motivations to plot against Maya in some level of twisted, self-serving love and making the mystery of Kurain all the more interesting.
Okay, I can't deny this. However, I put this to Morgan's merit. Pearl merely acts as a tool to create a depth to Morgan's character, rather than being a character of any real depth herself. As such, I argue that Pearl is (in herself) merely a "cute" character in the vein of a mascot who's depth is limited to being cute and shipping NaruMayo, from my point of view. She has worth as a tool to further other characters, however, her own character is severely lacking.
Calvinball wrote:...Yeah, that's probably not anything you haven't already heard, huh? I guess I don't know what you're looking for.
Just because I've already heard it before doesn't mean I didn't have fun debating it! Thank you for taking the time to debate/discuss this with me.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @enigma :
Ah, I see I have misunderstood you! I assumed you disliked Pearl for being useless to the games and storyline somehow, as I've encountered some people who dislike Maya for being "useless" (I honestly don't get that; without Maya, Phoenix isn't Phoenix. He's a man who lives and dies by his relationships with others. That's pretty dang important!) But now I see you seem to dislike her for being a mascot and shipper-on-deck and lacking actual character. At least, I think that's what you mean. If I'm wrong again, well, this text is a waste of space.

Anyway...

........................

..........................................................

Hm. This may just be a matter of taste in the end. I suspect that many of the qualities of Pearl Fey I found endearing (sweet, wanting to help, innocent, eager, but still very much like a child in that she tries to lie to Phoenix because she's scared of getting in trouble (which I though made her very human and more real than she would've been otherwise)) you found ultimately flat, shallow, and/or irritating, in which case I don't think I can ever convince you, as we see the same evidence in completely different lights. Ultimately, a well-deserved SS ranking, and certainly not for the faint of heart.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by Gav »

Spoiler : S rank challenges i guess :
A) Change my mind about not thinking 1984 is a brilliant novel.

B) Change my mind about today's popular music.

EXTRA-SPECIAL CHALLENGE) Change my mind about the overall quality of the first AA game.
gotMLK7 wrote:This is a list where NBA Jam beats Mega Man 2.

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by Lind »

I have no idea if there are any other Gundam fans here but

Gundam Unicorn is the best Gundam, barring maybe Turn A which I have only just started. Prove me wrong.
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by Holhol »

Gav wrote:
Spoiler : S rank challenges i guess :
B) Change my mind about today's popular music.
What exactly is your stance on popular music and why do you like/dislike it?
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by Gav »

Spoiler : @hol :
The vast majority of today's popular music has uninteresting music and lyrics and is overall sub-par.
gotMLK7 wrote:This is a list where NBA Jam beats Mega Man 2.

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
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energizerspark
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by energizerspark »

Still waiting for someone to actually try and challenge my Shrek opinion.
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DSY
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Re: The "Change My Mind" Thread

Post by DSY »

@Enigma concerning your question from waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy back, on page one. The one saying: change my mind: "Mandatory extraneous grinding is an example of unfair/fake difficulty, that RPG's should avoid.

Edit: To clarify, I mean that from the start of a level/dungeon up to the boss, I shouldn't have to go out of my way to fight enemies. I should naturally be at the correct level to fight the boss by the time I reach them." which I blatantly copy and pasted into my response. I give you a response even though it's entirely possible you actually already got one from someone else via ulterior means but anyway.

When you say you should naturally be at the correct level to fight the boss when you reach them, well, that would be quiet hard for any game developer to achieve. Considering you dislike the idea of running out to fight enemies it would seem to me you wouldn't have much a taste for random encounters in general, so it likely you would also be the type to run from enemies you don't want to deal with, and obtain no EXP for not beating then which in turn would lead to low levels. Unless your playing a game where ever single fight is scripted game developers can't exactly predict where and when your next fight will be save boss fights which are usually... in good games anyway, you are warned of before hand so it is on you as to how you deal with preparation. And if you are the type to fight random encounter enemies when they appear but not seek them out due to the need to grind then you have a much different mind set then I do and I would hope you face enough enemies on your way to which ever boss you plan to fight next to beat them. One last thing to bring up is that some games, or maybe just the ones I play, typically reward players with more then just EXP as a few I've played reward players with (sometimes) money, weapons or even new allies. If you are the type to dislike the whole random encounters thing then maybe you should play games that don't have a level system at all. But one last thing is that I would like to bring up a few RPGs I played where i didn't have to do to much level grinding in that you might enjoy, maybe. games being: SMT Nocturne (For PS2) Persona Q (for 3ds) and Final Fantasy 13 (for PS3)

And if I missed the point completely... then I apparently have no idea what you mean. I hope I was helpful in someway atleast.

@energizerspark Sorry to say but my opinion of Shrek has been changed recently to a negative view so I doubt I could help you.

EDIT: Concerning my views on Shrek, my view one the FIRST movie changed from good to bad. I (personally) never found the smallest enjoyment from Shrek 2 or Shrek 3. What's that? There was a Shrek 4 as well? I'm sorry I don't remember such a... horrible, grotesque film ever existing. AND NO ONE TRY TO PROVE ME OVER WISE.
Never speak in absolutes. (Which is a round about of saying I came back. Hi.)
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