Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

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Meph
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Meph »

Mimi Mika wrote:He's a clone of Phoenix. He's awkward and didn't get enough character development. So he's not a good choice, I guess.
Incorrect. He's had quite a lot, considering that it was only one game.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Hodou Okappa »

mAc Chaos wrote:Apollo isn't good for serious trials? Wasn't 4-4 pretty serious? I suppose not as serious as 2-4 or 3-5 though.
Yes, 4-4 was serious. You also spent the majority of the case as Phoenix and the parts where you played as Apollo were either quirky (the Mishams) or largely dominated by Kristoph instead. It's not just speculation, it's an integral part of his character. Apollo simply hasn't matured as a lawyer enough to take on such major trials and tense emotions without a little help. You can compare it to Phoenix -- where Nick matured fully over the course of one game, Apollo's going to take the better part of his story arc to come into his own.
Meph wrote:
Mimi Mika wrote:He's a clone of Phoenix. He's awkward and didn't get enough character development. So he's not a good choice, I guess.
Incorrect. He's had quite a lot, considering that it was only one game.
This. As I've already mentioned, considering Apollo to be a Phoenix clone is the worst way to go about writing him. They may react similarly to some scenarios, but they're two distinctly different people. A comparison I like to draw: Phoenix is to Apollo as Hobo Phoenix is to Older Mia. They're similar in behavior, but different in personality.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by mAc Chaos »

Ah, I see what you mean.

Regarding your description of Godot, I always thought he was much more laid back than the other prosecutors. While some try to stop Phoenix at every turn and impede his progress, hide the truth, or win at any cost, Godot seemed more like he didn't particularly care about winning per se and was just along for the ride to see what Phoenix could do. By that I mean he was more interested in seeing what Phoenix was made of than the trial itself it seemed. There were some moments where Godot could've stepped in and stopped Phoenix cold but instead just decided to sit back and let him proceed, for instance, to see what he was up to. I had the feeling he was just testing him through all of T&T.

Whether he'd act that way with someone else is up in the air though.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Mimi »

Really? I thought in AJ the other characters got more character development than him. I guess it's true, but Mia still differs from Phoenix greatly. Even if you compare Younger Mia to Phoenix. I still can't shake off the feeling Apollo and Phoenix are too similar. Or maybe I feel that way because I don't like Apollo to begin with anyway.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by E.D.Revolution »

I've got to say thin about defense attorneys, though. Out of all four of them, only PW and Edgeworth are the most developed defense attorneys AFAIK. I mean, we've seen PW transform in the course of three games as far as tactics and personality is concerned. Edgeworth only needed one case to determine his development, and I'd say he's well developed, despite being in the defense for his only time. Pair that with AAI and we've got a well developed character.

Apollo Justice... like PW in PW1, but a hell of a lot more naive, despite having more access to technology. Has presence only when he's fighting Klavier.

Young Mia Fey... nice try, but court cases don't decide her personality. Unlike AJ, Mia Fey has a lot more room to grow as a rookie defense attorney. Sure, she's very spunky and the most sarcastic out of all defense attorneys. And yes, she thinks like Edgeworth: rational and realistically. But remember this: she's been appearing only in first cases. I mean that literally. She had two first cases, which means we only know Young Mia through 3-1 and 3-4. We don't know exactly what her investigating style is nor do we know how she has matured during her years as a living lawyer. We can try to interpolate/extrapolate her growth by comparing it with Older Mia, but Older Mia is a mentor in all PW games. It's hard to say how she had changed from 2013-2016, but the description of Young Mia shouldn't be deemed as conclusive. Don't forget: discounting Misty Fey, she's the strongest Spirit Medium before her untimely death.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Mimi »

Either way, I think Apollo didn't get enough time to shine, even if he got more cases than Mia because Mia was there for like three GAMES. That AJ had Phoenix doing all the investigating at the end. Apollo's bland compared to Phoenix, which made me think there was going to be a sequel or something.

But aside that, your guide is a guide. AN EXCELLENT ONE that I'm currently using now. :larry:
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by E.D.Revolution »

You're right. Polly didn't have a chance to shine. Mia is a main character in all PW games... but she's more well known as a mentor. I was arguing about the maturation as a defense attorney. AJ has more full cases after 4-1. Mia Fey was there in 3-1 and 3-4, and they were "first cases." Therefore, it was easy to conclude Mia Fey's style based on the "first cases." My point is that she's not very developed as a defense attorney (her being a mentor gives us a lot of mystery of her past cases.) Because Capcom is not likely to expand on the Mia Fey arc, this gives us a lot of room to interpret her behavior post-Turnabout Memories.

I have to agree that Polly Justice is very underdeveloped. He doesn't inspire me at all. So... blah. The last case was supposed to be a climax for the main character, but Capcom made it quite anticlimactic in Turnabout Succession. Can't say something epic about the law? Come on! But maybe if Capcom goes with AJ2/GS5, then maybe Polly can be more developed.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Admiral Canuck »

Something I thought I should mention about your guide...

I don't really see the problem with using Shelly de Killer as an OC. His sprites really don't look that outrageous, and it's very easy to pass him off as a kind of manservant. Both Blackrune and I did this for our trials with no problems. I also think Matt Engarde would be an okay choice, as long as his "villain" sprites aren't used. Without them, he really just looks like a stereotypical "cool" guy.

On the flip-side, I'm not sure Redd White would be a good choice for an OC. It could work, but like Damon Gant, his personality is very overpowering, and it comes out too well in his sprites.

EDIT: I realize, however, that it's supposed to be your opinion. :)
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Hodou Okappa »

E.D.Revolution wrote:I've got to say thin about defense attorneys, though. Out of all four of them, only PW and Edgeworth are the most developed defense attorneys AFAIK. I mean, we've seen PW transform in the course of three games as far as tactics and personality is concerned. Edgeworth only needed one case to determine his development, and I'd say he's well developed, despite being in the defense for his only time. Pair that with AAI and we've got a well developed character.

Apollo Justice... like PW in PW1, but a hell of a lot more naive, despite having more access to technology. Has presence only when he's fighting Klavier.

Young Mia Fey... nice try, but court cases don't decide her personality. Unlike AJ, Mia Fey has a lot more room to grow as a rookie defense attorney. Sure, she's very spunky and the most sarcastic out of all defense attorneys. And yes, she thinks like Edgeworth: rational and realistically. But remember this: she's been appearing only in first cases. I mean that literally. She had two first cases, which means we only know Young Mia through 3-1 and 3-4. We don't know exactly what her investigating style is nor do we know how she has matured during her years as a living lawyer. We can try to interpolate/extrapolate her growth by comparing it with Older Mia, but Older Mia is a mentor in all PW games. It's hard to say how she had changed from 2013-2016, but the description of Young Mia shouldn't be deemed as conclusive. Don't forget: discounting Misty Fey, she's the strongest Spirit Medium before her untimely death.
Well, in that regard, this whole guide is still opinions. You can't write a 100% technical guide about writing -- it's an emotional practice, not a technical one.

Anyway, yeah, there's not a whole lot of Mia around, but I feel like just from those two cases and her later appearances her personality shines through. (Also, shameless self-sale here, but I plan to explore Mia's law career a lot in The Brothers Turnabout [Alternate Universe, from that contest? Promised Henke I'd finish it? I've actually been working on it, it's been taking a while because I started using some heavy custom content.])
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by SwagmaWampyr »

Can't say something epic about the law? Come on!
That's a character defining moment in itself for Apollo, though. He's not a large ham like Phoenix who yells out the first thing that comes to his mind no matter how irrational it is; he knows he doesn't have enough experience to really say anything about law, so he opts to keep quiet because he knows he doesn't have anything to contribute to the discussion.


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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Zeel1™ »

As far as Apollo/Phoenix goes - myself, I've never been one of the Apollo haters. Not necessarily his biggest fan, but I don't have much of a problem with him personally. I plan on using him at one point, and hope to make him a bit more likable to his detractors. He does have similarities - as would be expected, he's his protege - but saying he's a clone is a bit much. There are some key differences. He can be a bit more aggressive with less provocation than Phoenix, especially concerning Klavier. ("Screw cool, I want this guy's head on a stick!") He also seems a little less patient with his clients than Phoenix is. For example, I don't really think Phoenix would look at Vera Misham and think "Worst client ever" like Polly did, just because she was quiet and shy. And he's also a little more cocky than Phoenix was, as has pretty much been noted.

As far as similarities go, I kind of liken Phoenix/Apollo to Edgeworth/Manfred. (Especially Younger Edgeworth of course, but it comes through with regular Edgeworth a little too.) You can see general similarities - with their behavior, and their defending/prosecuting styles. Like I said though, as the respective proteges, it's only natural that they would pick up some things from the people that taught them. Now of course, Edgeworth's differences from Manfred go deeper than Apollo's with Phoenix, but that too would be expected. Manfred was an evil bastard that killed Edgeworth's dad, after all, so of course he wouldn't want to be like him if he can help it. Apollo, on the other hand, has little reason to want to separate himself from Phoenix.

I think there are two main issues with Apollo - both of which can be fixed, and probably need to be worked on if they plan to make a sequel. The first one is that, personality-wise atleast, his most notable differences from Phoenix aren't necessarily likable ones. Can be more sarcastic and biting with less ammunition, not quite as patient with clients or in general really, likes to make puns off of his name... (Although in fairness... he's a Defense Attorney named Justice. I'd probably be tempted too... :P)

The second one is, he doesn't really get epic moments where he completely owns witnesses like Phoenix does. There are often times at the end of Phoenix' cases where he goes on a spiel, recounting every detail of the crime, showing that he's managed to piece together every little aspect of how things really went down, and letting the guilty party know just how sunk they really are. Apollo did manage to figure out the crimes and criminals in 4-2 and 4-3, but I don't really recall him doing things like that to truly leave them defeated. He's never been in full control of a trial like that.

It may have something to do with the fact that one of Klavier's most notable traits is that even when he's losing, he still seems to have everything covered. It's kind of hard to let the Defense Attorney steal the show without either compromising that or just having Klavier kind of fade out as the trial slips out of his hands for good. In any case, I think it would be interesting to see how Apollo reacts to being in that position of power. Who knows, maybe he could gain a little more respect doing that.

I get what they were going for with the first AJ game. A rookie attorney, not quite used to the world of law. Generally a good lawyer - good enough to win his first four trials anyway - but hasn't quite reached his full potential. I understand that, but the issue with this is Phoenix never had that in his first game. He stepped right in and by the end of the first case he was kicking witness' asses, and letting everyone know that being an attorney was what he was born to do. Therefore, doing that with Apollo, makes him seem inferior - atleast, as far as the rookie year comparison goes.

In any case, I'd be more than thrilled to see a sequel for AJ, hopefully one where he's more matured as both a person and a lawyer. I've got faith in the makers of AA that they can fix his issues, and frankly, if they were to give up on him after just one game - and one that I myself really liked for that matter - I'd be fairly disappointed.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Mimi »

That's the problem. I just felt one game with Apollo wasn't enough to make him a likable character. I mean, I know more about Trucy than him! All we know is that he has a mysterious dad and the same mom. And he's the student of Kristoph. Now he's the student of Feenie. What else? There's lots of things he's missing that I'm hoping that will tie up. Then I'll acknowledge him as a true attorney.

...I have a feeling this "true thing" comes from Umineko... (I won't acknowledge you as a true witch!)

GRR! HOW COULD I PUT IT AS KLAVIER! Too much editing today...
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by E.D.Revolution »

I believe you mean Kristoph (though I much prefer him as a student of Klavier, so he can score some "awesomeness points.")

Yeah, I have to agree with Zeel when he says that Polly isn't/can't own up to his victories. He keeps getting blocked/helped by Klavier. In general, Polly Justice seems to be blocked from achieving his full potential. Polly is a bit less... "professional" so to speak, but as Zeel said, that's more of a testament to his naiveté. Even so, I don't like playing as Polly Justice.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Phantom »

Oh Apollo Justice isn't a fleshed out character, I agree, some bits and parts are there, but he hasn't really matured like Phoenix did along with experience, and it took him 3 games to do that!

I was going to address this issue in a game, but now I might have to change it up a bit.
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Re: Guide: Hodou Masaka's Big Glorious Trial Writing Guide!

Post by Mimi »

By the way, in the character section, what about the detectives?
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