[T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ★

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Calvinball
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Spyromed (spoilers for The Broken Turnabout and Two Sides of the Same Turnabout within) :
Thank you very much, Spyromed!

And also, dang. BadPlayer beat me to the idea of using the badge in a serious trial by about a year...
EDIT:
Spoiler : Additional cry for help! TSotST spoilers, natch :
So I've solved Regina Verse's murder, but Henry pointed out I did nothing to prove that I didn't kill Oberon. The one thing I can't figure out is how the killer made the locked room! The killer HAD to be outside the room when the body was discovered; otherwise, Henry and Mint would've discovered the killer. The killer also had to be inside the room during the murder; there's no way to indirectly stab someone five times based on the evidence, and this time there isn't a radio hypnotist to blame. The problem is, how did the killer leave? Not the window, apparently no the door... Say, what's with this apartment? Why is it not possible to lock the door using the lock on the door knob from the inside and then close it on your way out? WHY DON'T LOCKED ROOM MYSTERIES MAKE ANY SENSE?

Sorry, that was a bit of an overreaction.

Also, why am I not allowed to say "Oberon killed himself and then I stabbed him three times after he was dead"? I feel like that is a VERY valid answer!

Anyway, some help would be VERY appreciated. I thought I got it by using the "switched keys theory" (killer swapped old apartment key with new apartment key), but apparently there wasn't a good opportunity to switch the keys with Henry, Helene, AND Mint there together...
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Reverie »

Would do the same hints thing as before but you've basically got it...
Spoiler : Vague hints :
The killer did switch the keys in that way, just as you said.
If the problem is the assumption that there would be no opportunity to do it with Helene, Mint and Henry there, then you'd be right (iirc, although I don't actually remember the timing of all of that stuff) if not for a particular circumstance (it's quite a big hint so the "circumstance" is detailed in the next spoiler). You don't want to accuse yourself, obviously, but if you look at everyone in the profiles list and think back to everything that happened when Henry and Mint tried to enter the room, there's a pretty big opportunity for the culprit to switch the keys. It's not a moment that's particularly "minor," either - not something that the scene would have to be replayed to remember. (And although they never addressed the guard's possible guilt in his testimony, it isn't that...)
As for how they left... it's basically just the option that makes the most sense.
Spoiler : Bigger hints :
Just the identity of the culprit completely invalidates this whole problem.
If you're assuming that the keys were first switched while Henry et al. were there and then switched back afterwards, try a different approach.
Spoiler : Full answer :
Bad Player wrote: Oh well. Outside, inside, door, outside, spare key, apartment key, henry.
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Calvinball »

@Spyromed: ... That's good. That's really good (thank you, by the way!).
Spoiler : But one more thing... :
I know I've been asking for a lot of hints, but... now I'm stuck on Henry's final rebuttal, where I need to find one thing to prove he performed an action relating to Helene's theory. I can't tell if the proof lies with one of the actions he's leaving out of the main theory or if it's elsewhere... I tried to say he could've left traces of chloroform on the spare key, but the game didn't accept that possibility... Then I tried to figure out if there was a way to say he left traces of himself on Helene's clothing when attacking her, but I couldn't figure out a good way to say that with the evidence either (and I get the feeling that those aren't the right answers anyway...).
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Gamer2002 »

Spoiler : hint :
Henry left a trace of himself in the room.
Spoiler : hint :
Henry had to do something that required him to take off his gloves.
Spoiler : hint :
Henry set a picture on the fire.
Spoiler : hint :
The point is made using an evidence from the murder in gallery.
Spoiler : answer :
Henry had to take off his gloves to remove and put back batteries of the fire alarm.
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Calvinball »

@Gamer2002: Many thanks! Although... while it's a devilishly clever mystery, I don't see how I could've ever known I was supposed to present THAT in order to say what needed to be said... :/
Also...
Spoiler : I don't even know why I keep trying to play mystery games :
Uh.... something impossible with the trial? And it's not the unpresented video? Er................ help?
EDIT: Never mind that, guessing worked. Still doesn't make any sense for some reason. I'll wait it out, see where this goes.
Last edited by Calvinball on Thu May 21, 2015 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Enthalpy »

That particular puzzle is one you're either going to get when you first see it, or you'd never figure it out on your own. I'll try to give hints, but... I'm not sure how much they'll help for this. (In hindsight, this one actually seems a bit unfair.)
Spoiler : Hint 1 :
The problem relates to how the evidence was introduced in court.
Spoiler : Hint 2 :
Ace Attorney games normally tell you who introduced each piece of evidence. If that information was here, this particular puzzle would be much simpler!
Spoiler : Hint 3 :
This is a piece of evidence that we saw in a Cicero flashback... but was never brought up in court by Cicero.
Spoiler : Hint 4 :
This evidence was introduced by Helene, and was crucial in showing Henry's ability to pull off the locked room trick.
Spoiler : Solution :
Apartment Key.
EDIT: Or too late. Oh well.
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Calvinball »

No, seriously, why DO I keep trying to play mystery games?
Spoiler : Final cry for help :
Welp, didn't see that coming. Okay, gotta prove that either Helene isn't Helene, Helene is Titania, real!Helene is dead, or that Helene wasn't out of the country or something like that. But... what? I tried presenting Titania to say "Hey, how'd you know she was a maid?" but apparently that's wrong... It's not the fire alarm, the key thing was already dismissed, for some reason it's STILL not the video tape...

But didn't we at one point see Titania and Helene in the same room together anyway? How does this even work?!
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Reverie »

Spoiler : TSotST :
This one is entirely memory based, and unlike the scene where Henry goes to the guard office, is a pretty minor detail that could easily be forgotten.
Enthalpy wrote:That particular puzzle is one you're either going to get when you first see it, or you'd never figure it out on your own. I'll try to give hints, but... I'm not sure how much they'll help for this. (In hindsight, this one actually seems a bit unfair.)
Also, this rebuttal can't be deus ex machina'd out of by using the tape, just in case you were wondering.
Spoiler : Hint 1 :
First of all, unless they're a huge misdirection - which they aren't in this particular case - the first and last statements can safely be discarded as filler.
Spoiler : Hint 2 :
There are no roundabout methods needed for breaking this argument. One present is all that's needed.
Spoiler : Hint 3 :
Considering there is zero evidence about Helene's murder, there's no point trying to prove how she's dead, or even if she is.
Spoiler : Hint 4 :
And while we're at completely disregarding statements, there's no direct evidence pertaining to Titania / Helene's trip abroad, so this path is a dead end, too.
Spoiler : Hint 5 :
This leaves two statements: "You can't prove I'm not Helene Allard" and "You can't prove I'm Titania Immel." What evidence could have been left throughout anybody's life that could used to prove their identity?
Spoiler : Hint 6 :
You want to remember a detail from a time before Titania took Helene's identity.
Spoiler : Hint 7 :
It's a detail in the scene where Ianson tells Phoenix-sprites that Regina died. Henry and the Titania were there to console him. Try to think back over everything that happened here and what evidence Titania may have left behind.
Spoiler : Hint 8 :
The answer lies in one of the pieces of evidence that Ianson showed to the group. At the point where the scene is over, Titania has already left damning evidence of her identity which can be shown by presenting it.
Spoiler : Hint 9 :
Stuff that is commonly used to identify suspects or victim: fingerprints, DNA / hair strands, teeth markings. Which of these is most likely to be revelant here?
Spoiler : Hint 10 :
Just like a lot of previous times, there are tiny details left in the evidence descriptions that could recharge your memory.
Spoiler : Hint 11 :
If you still haven't remembered the evidence, it's something that Ianson explicitly handed over to Titania for her to examine. In other words, she left her fingerprints on a piece of evidence.
Spoiler : Hint 12: The statement required :
Statement 3.
Spoiler : Solution :
Present the lighter at statement 3. Since Titania handled it, her prints will naturally be on it.
Last edited by Reverie on Thu May 21, 2015 8:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Enthalpy »

Two Sides is... very hard. Probably one of the two hardest fair things in Ace Attorney Online. As for this particular puzzle, let's take it step-by-step.
Spoiler : Step 1 :
My best guess is that this trial has you so rattled that it's difficult to piece things together. This happens to me all the time. Let's try taking this slowly!

We saw Titania and Helene in the same room, at the ball with Regina. You tell me how Titania could be Helene. Remember, Titania disappeared shortly after Regina's murder. Despite that Helene somehow knew about the apartment key, Helene was not present when Cicero arrived at Regina's crime scene, or during his investigation.
Spoiler : Step 1 (Hint 2) :
Helene planned to leave the country after her meeting with Titania.
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : Step 1 :
Alright... so Titania somehow learned that Helene was planning on leaving the country. Unfortunately, Helene never made it. Titania kills her. either before she leaves or after she leaves, probably before for the sake of ease. Adopting her identity while maintaining the Titania persona is easy when Helene isn't even supposed to be around.

She adopts the Helene persona because... reasons. "Helene" eventually has to return to the country, and so Titania begins posing as her in front of people. Successfully, it would seem. Except she learns about the portrait, and while it seems she got the look down, it wasn't enough. Something about that butterfly... I suspect there was some sort of inside reference Titania wasn't getting. She realized it might be something important, something Helen would never not know, so she has to burn the painting. This leads to Regina's murder.

Maybe?

Wait, no the chronology's wrong. Titania kills/otherwise disposes of Helene, adopts the persona. As Helene she learns about the painting's secret butterfly thing she doesn't get. So "Helene goes out of the country." Then as Titania she burns the painting and kills Regina. Then she ditches the Titania persona so she can never be caught.

...

I'm not getting it at all, am I? And how do I prove anything about Helena and Titiania? There's no evidence that decisively has traces of Titania because it was all burned. There's no evidence that decisively has traces of Helene because it'd be from so long ago. There's no evidence that decisively proves that the real Helene Allard is dead because it's from so long ago and has nothing to do with this case. There's no evidence that decisively proves that Helene Allard didn't go out of the country. There's no evidence that proves anything except that tape that I'm supposed to show yet!

If Henry's crime was perfect, Titania's is godlike!

Aagh... sorry, I'm just clueless as to where to go next. I keep thinking, and thinking about it, but nothing I think of makes any sense. Does it have to do with the coin necklace? I can't think of a way to present that. No traces of Titania would've been left on the Regina murder evidence... We have no traces of Helene........ I tried suggesting that Regina's burnt corpse was actually Helene's, but I guess that was a long shot anyway..... Hrm......... What's step 2? ...... Or did I not even make it past Step 1?
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Enthalpy »

Spoiler : Step 1 :
calvinball wrote:Alright... so Titania somehow learned that Helene was planning on leaving the country. Unfortunately, Helene never made it. Titania kills her. either before she leaves or after she leaves, probably before for the sake of ease. Adopting her identity while maintaining the Titania persona is easy when Helene isn't even supposed to be around.

She adopts the Helene persona because... reasons. "Helene" eventually has to return to the country, and so Titania begins posing as her in front of people. Successfully, it would seem. Except she learns about the portrait, and while it seems she got the look down, it wasn't enough. Something about that butterfly... I suspect there was some sort of inside reference Titania wasn't getting. She realized it might be something important, something Helen would never not know, so she has to burn the painting. This leads to Regina's murder.
Got it, pretty much. Helene wasn't "supposed" to return to the country until after the murder, so there was no need to impersonate Helene until Titania was already gone. Okay, that narrows down what you need to prove: The person claiming to be Helene now is actually Titania, not the real Helene.
Spoiler : Step 2 :

There's no evidence that decisively has traces of Titania because it was all burned. There's no evidence that decisively has traces of Helene because it'd be from so long ago. There's no evidence that decisively proves that the real Helene Allard is dead because it's from so long ago and has nothing to do with this case. There's no evidence that decisively proves that Helene Allard didn't go out of the country.


One of these statements is wrong. Now that you know when the swap happened, think about events after the swap. What did "Helene" do as Titania? What was she supposed to have done as "Helene"? This is another memory puzzle that can be brutal if you let a detail slip. Thankfully, there's something in the Court Record that might jog your memory.
[/quote]
Spoiler : Clue 1 :
Titania got the act down perfectly. You need to think through what Helene did as Titania between Helene's murder and Titania vanishing.
Spoiler : Clue 2 :
Focus on her actions when talking with Cicero at the crime scene.
Spoiler : Clue 3 :
Any evidence would degrade... unless it was just about to be preserved as evidence!
Spoiler : Clue 4 :
To identify a piece of evidence, Cicero did something that is normally bad practice, but here, it's going to bring around a turnabout. Look over the Court Record again!
Spoiler : SOLUTION :
Cicero let Titania touch the lighter. The lighter has been preserved as evidence, and still bears Titania's fingerprints.
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : ... :
First I will say that that was brilliant and anyone who solved the case without hints is a genius. It's an evil, evil evil memory puzzle... but brilliant, nonetheless. (I'm still peeved by the puzzle where I have to present the MUSEUM fire alarm evidence to talk about the APARTMENT fire alarm evidence. How was I even supposed to know the apartment HAD a fire alarm? THIS puzzle, though, was GOOD. You're given everything. The moment where Titania touches the lighter is even dwelled upon for a long moment, almost to make it obvious... and it still sneaks right under one's nose.

Except now... MORE puzzles? How can Helene prove that Henry did, in fact, murder Oberon, despite that tape? I tried presenting the autopsy report to say "blood would've splattered on you. You had a change of clothes! WHY WOULD YOU HAVE BROUGHT A CHANGE OF CLOTHES IF THIS WASN'T PLANNED? Except the game didn't interpret the autopsy as referring to that answer...

Sorry, uh, overreacting again.., but geez, this case just doesn't let up! And giving you a game over after the trial's over? Utterly brutal...

So, uh, hint, I guess? Please?
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Enthalpy »

Spoiler : :
Don't worry, this is the last one! And this one is... more about finding the one thing he can't explain away from some contrived coincidence.

Look for something that had to have been done the day before in order for the trick to work.
Spoiler : HINT :
This isn't about the killing, but the frameup.
Spoiler : HINT :
What was the biggest piece of evidence against Helene, again?
Spoiler : SOLUTION :
Keys, anyone?
Last edited by Enthalpy on Thu May 21, 2015 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected use of the wrong name.
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : Zvarri! :
Well. That was certainly something. (Thank you very much, Enthalpy.)

First, I want to say thanks to everyone who helped me through this with the hints (Spyromed, Enthalpy, and Gamer2002). It wouldn't have been possible for me to play through it otherwise.

Next, BadPlayer, I want to say that that was utterly evil. Brilliant as well, but evil. But mostly brilliant. Like, mad genius sort of brilliant, if you know what I mean. I don't know how you even thought of all that. Everything was basically fair (I still don't like the fire alarm thing, but oh well). My one piece of advice would be that failing during the "Helene Allard" rebuttal sends you back to Henry's objection with the apartment key, forcing a player to go through that whole segment again. Should you use a checkpoint system in the future (unnecessary, thanks to V6), I would advise not making the checkpoints so spread out during that crazy-brutal portion of the endgame.

Also, it felt fairlybalanced. I was kind of iffy about the story at first and felt like some things weren't getting explained that well, but I stuck with it and soon the story got as engaging as the puzzles themselves. Kudos on that.

The way the case itself was structured, with the flashbacks interspersed at key points was very interesting as well. I rather liked it. I had an idea for a case where this sort of thing happened before I made The Broken Turnabout, but it didn't pan out. It probably wouldn't have turned out as nicely as it did in Two Sides of the Same Turnabout anyway(By the way, great name! It makes sense, but it's also not formulaic, which is very nice). And your use of the flashbacks as a sort of interface screw was interesting as well - how we, the players, know about the apartment key, but technically Helene shouldn't (although, I'd sort of assumed that Cicero mentioned it but it didn't get written down).

Well, I admittedly don't have much to contributed. Basically, really good job! I mean, wow, that was really good. And frustratingly difficult (thanks everyone, again). But mostly just good! An engaging mystery with a fascinating answer. As Aristotle Means would say, "Gold Star!"
Oh, and as long as Enthalpy's hanging around... who is handling the QA inspection?
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Re: [T] Two Sides of the Same Turnabout ☆

Post by Enthalpy »

The plan was for Evolina to handle the QA. I understand she's been fairly busy with college.
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